Episode 7: Beyond the Mat - Integration in Everyday Life

What does it really mean to integrate, not as a concept, but as a lived, daily, sometimes failing act of bringing your whole self back into contact with your life?

In this episode, Suks sits down with Ambar Surastri, a sound healing practitioner, trainee psychosynthesis counsellor, and second year student at Inspire Breathwork, for a conversation that moves through some of the most important questions in healing work today. They explore what agency really means in a breathwork space, why language matters more than we think, how capitalism is quietly dismantling the third spaces our communities need, and what it looks like to hold transformation and ordinary life in the same hands at the same time.

Warm, wide-ranging, and full of the kind of honesty (and laughs) that only comes from two people willing to go there together - Episode 8 of The Inspire Breathwork Podcast.

Whether you are here as a student of breathwork or a professional drawn to the Decolonizing Breathwork Facilitator Training by Inspire Breathwork — come sit with us. Because healing was never meant to happen alone. And it starts with one breath.

Ambar is an urban medicine woman who is fascinated by the transpersonal and creative dimensions of human beings. Like many of us, she was born to forget, now here to remember. Who she was, before society decided who she should be. Her lived experience with ancestral trauma, loss, grief, systems of oppression, not belonging, burnout, and a breast cancer diagnosis has invited her to utilise sound, stillness and breath as vehicles for liberation and transformation in a world of constant change.
She made it her mission to support individuals and groups in reclaiming their agency by remembering and returning to the Self through the breath.

Her practice is rooted in radical love, decolonial healing and embodied social justice that helps us connect with ourselves and others.

Connect with Ambar:

Instagram: @ambarsurastri
Email: www.ambarsurastri.net

Transcript:

00:00:02

Hello and welcome in to episode 7 of the Inspire Breath work podcast. We talk a lot in this space about the breath, about what happens when we drop in, when something shifts, when the body finally says what the mind has been avoiding. But there's a moment that I keep coming back to that that moment right after something shifts, after the session ends, after the breath settles, after whatever needed to move has finally moved, and then your phone buzzes. Someone needs dinner. The city is still

00:00:39

outside the window doing what it always does. And you think, how do I carry this back with me? How do I take what just happened in here and make it mean something out there? Integration. It's one of the least glamorous and most important questions in this entire practice, in any healing and inner work practice. A word that sounds straightforward until you try to actually do it. I know I've had my struggles with it. I continue to, in fact. And so today, for my sake and for yours, I am sitting with someone who has

00:01:19

not only made integration her life's work, she has lived it in the most literal and courageous sense. Her name is Amber Sarestri. She is a sound healing practitioner, a traininee psychosynthesis counselor, a breath work student and practitioner and someone who understands in her bones what it means to transform and keep transforming. And Amber, I am so glad you said yes to this conversation. Welcome. Welcome in. >> Thank you so much. So honored to be here with you. Looking forward to it. And

00:01:56

we're finally here. Yeah, I'm so glad uh because I remember when I came to you also for the breath work session we had I think a couple of months ago. What I came to you with was exactly this. How I am struggling to integrate and embody this practice and my own life practice. And it's so interesting that that's the subject we picked as our core for this conversation. Even though I feel like the conversation will go a lot of places. Let's see where it takes us, right? >> Yeah.

00:02:31

And so before uh we dive into anything, I think I just want to check in with you and see how you're doing. How are you arriving into this space right now? I'm arriving very calm. Thank you for asking. I went for a walk and made sure that my day was smooth. I did all my task in the morning so I can be present together with you. So I feel very grounded and settled. Yeah. And what will emerge for will probably be passion or something but I I feel good. Thank you. Yeah. >> Oh, that's lovely. I really love that.

00:03:14

Um, thank you for that honesty and also thank you for um, you know, taking the time to allow yourself to really arrive and facilitating your own presence as Hannah calls it. Um, >> interestingly, I too, even though it's been a few months that I've been hosting this podcast, every session that I have up for recording, I also really try to keep my day as open as possible on the day I'm recording. In fact, the day before and after are also kind of managed accordingly because I know um that we're

00:03:52

having in-depth conversations and they're going a lot of places and so much comes up in the following days to it. So, thank you for also making that effort. >> Yeah, absolutely. No problem because I feel like with these kind of spacious spaces >> integration can also happen after because things are emerging from our unconscious you know within this conversation. So maybe at the end we're like okay well that's interesting I've got to know a different part of myself that needs a place at one point.

00:04:28

So it's also nice for me just to scoop all the things that are not really relevant and and free up space to be present. But it's something what I have practiced the last few years didn't come naturally. >> I think that's even more beautiful to the fact that there was identification that there's a gap that can be filled there's growth that can happen and then >> get right to it. And I think there's something really important about uh also not launching straight in about arriving first uh

00:05:07

together. >> So I am wondering if you would like to take us into an orientation breath before we begin. >> Absolutely. So before we're going to focus inwards either with your eyes closed, softening your gaze or focus on one point within the space, I would like you to get acquainted in the space um that you're in. And we do that by looking around us. This is going to be a very important thing because I am in a space that I've made mine in a short time because I'm in a temporary

00:05:50

uh flat. So, it's important for me to do the checkup, looking at the corners of the room, the colors of the walls, and maybe there are some areas in the space I didn't really look at. And then maybe there are some items I would like to have moved before I'm going to continue the conversation. Um, checking if I have my resources in place. I have my water. Do you have something to drink? Shs. Amazing. Maybe there's some textures. Little bit of cotton. Some materials that used to be

00:06:38

living creatures like trees that now formed into wood for my floors or some other items within the space. And when you're ready, I would like to invite you to soften your eyes or go inwards soft gaze to your focal point. And notice how you're energetically arriving within the body by softening your eyes, your jaw. Let your tongue relax on the bottom of your mouth. Then soften your shoulders. Raise awareness to your belly. Breathe there to get you out of the mind. And notice how the quality of your

00:07:40

breath is without changing anything about it. And notice how your chest is expanding followed by the belly. And notice if you can anchor yourself on the chair you're sitting and with each exhale going to feel a bit more heavy and grounded in your seat. Maybe you feel some sensations in your arms or your legs. Just observe what's happening there without putting any labels on it. Maybe there's some tingling in there. Little bit of flow. Maybe slight pulsations. I would like you to take the deepest

00:09:04

inhale through your nose. Exhale through the mouth. Let's do two more. Inhale through the nose. Exhale through the mouth. Let's together. Inhale through the nose. Exhale through the mouth. And notice how you soften the body, you soften the mind, you soften the breath. And when you're ready, can slowly let light through the eyes and open your eyes. If you would like to stretch, you can do it. Open the heart space. It's nice for conversation. Welcome back. Oh, thank you so much. >> Yeah, I think I was very aware I needed

00:10:42

that today. >> And then I gave you the stretch a little bit. You're like, "Oh, that's actually so nice." afterwards. >> I love that last it was so cute and sweet to listen to also just stretch your heart space and allow space in for this conversation. >> Yeah, I felt that. I was like, "Oh, that's really nice to allow that for us and to welcome what's emerging." I said, "Yeah, I just wanted to say that." >> Yeah, that was really sweet. And when

00:11:11

you said that in my mind it was just like this thing of yes it literally means what you're saying but it also nervous system wise does that thing. It's not just a visual representation. actually is the inner working as well which is really >> it's an embodiment you know when the intention what has been said and you include the body as well and I'm also sharing it with you we're in connection >> that's that's just a very simple thing of something that's embodied

00:11:46

>> um >> really really love those things when everything fits into each other >> thank you so much for that >> you're welcome H okay we are here let's yes begin so Amber before we go anywhere um firstly I wanted to check if I am pronouncing your name correct >> yes Amber Surri >> Amber there is a little R at the end there which is very hard to catch but I'm going to try as much as possible through this conversation. >> Thank you. I appreciate that.

00:12:28

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so before we go anywhere, just >> tell us tell the listeners and kind of me also because I think I know parts of you but I don't know so much as well. Uh so I suppose just let's begin with who you are. Not quite your qualifications or your healing story perhaps instead what you do. Um, what do your life and surroundings look like? Actually, what fills your days and time? >> That's a very difficult question. It's very difficult because I'm in a very

00:13:09

different space just like you when starting the training is how to identify yourself, how to label um whereas in traditional ways I'm labeling myself as a woman that has color coming from the west who studied something worked somewhere whereas now I'm thinking more in essence and which is more poetic and it depends on how I'm arriving today. So right now I am light I feel a lot of love today and maybe tomorrow I'll be a different weather. Uh but if you would ask me who is Ambar,

00:13:54

Ambar is someone that has a lot of appreciation for connection. Connection in the most broad way how you can be connected because that's the way people can back get back to their soul. And that's something what I'm very very busy with with the work what I'm doing because the disconnection with soul comes through human conditioning that has come into futation through the way we live social construct capitalism so I think it's a very difficult question to answer because it depends on how I feel

00:14:40

and my knowledge on what being something is but I think say that I am love in in looking for connection would be like the best way to describe me as a person but if you would like the more like professional maybe you can ask a question like professional what keeps you busy what keeps you off the street what are your interests I can be more specific but you know if you ask that kind of question it's very poetic and broad I Wow, that was I loved some parts of the questions you created just now around um

00:15:21

>> what keeps you busy, yes, but what keeps you off the street? That's such an interesting way of u asking that really age-old and annoying questions of what do you do? >> Yeah, because that's one of the first questions especially I'm living in London. I'm dialing in from London. That's I think one of the first or two questions people ask and to define is what your career is and I feel that uh a big part of someone's personality is lost by being defined with what you do

00:15:53

for a living. Uh so that's something what I found very interesting to look into. So instead of asking what are you for a living is maybe what is your favorite color people don't expect that. So I think it's actually quite surprising because it highlights other parts of human beings that they haven't allowed other people to show. But what keeps me off the streets is I'm I'm a holistic therapist and I got into sound healing uh for individuals and group work recently as a professional

00:16:32

uh because I moved I changed careers from working in advertising into something different and I'm adding other modalities to it as well. I'm also certified yoga nuda teacher and I'm training to become a breast work facilitator especially with a lens on decolonized therapies and social embody justice and I'm also training to become a psychosynthesis counselor. So with all those modalities I I'll be able to meet people where they are. Um depending on if they can use certain kind of words to

00:17:09

describe something I just can find things uh to meet people within their own language. So that's what I find mastering different kinds of therapies being very valuable for someone's self-development or how can help people grow or create their own lives. >> Yeah. Thank you. Um that's a lot that you're doing. Um >> it's a lot but it's but it does add up to each other because in the end is about addressing people as being holistic that we are physical with emotions we

00:17:48

have our mind we're very spiritual is just looking at human beings from different angles but it's actually the same thing. I can use different kind of vehicles like the breath or I can use sound. Maybe I can use words for conversation. So it it looks it sounds a lot but it all connects very well together and it makes made a lot of sense to me at one point. Yeah. >> Yeah, it does. And to also acknowledge that there are so many parts of us that actually exist and have the capacity and quality to actually be able

00:18:30

to come together is beautiful. Um and I am curious about a lot of it actually. One of them I actually don't even know as definition. So I will get to that. Um as well >> sound therapy also is very interesting to me. I'm in one of the uh locations in India and I would imagine around the world also where uh Santarpi is a huge part of the groundwork which uh I'm located in Oruraveville in India >> which is an experimental township where there is an organization called Swaram

00:19:08

who do exclusively this work and they um work with sound they have sound baths they are researching I was actually part of a research here with uh how sound has impact on our emotions and brain waves. So I had one of those >> hats on with nodes attached while they took me through a sound session. >> Yeah, that's really interesting stuff. Um >> very interesting. Yes, absolutely. >> Yeah. So I will gradually get into some of these topics I think. Um I would however love to begin with

00:19:47

breath work which is sort of the base of the organization that um yeah that we're talking we're connected through right now. Um so how how did breath work found you find you or did you find it and say what was your first experience of it? What did you make of it? My first experience with breath work was a few years ago within a group setting. And the thing is with breath work is you get a lot depending how you how much you're going to put in of yourself. And I felt at a time that I could

00:20:31

um I felt safe enough to go into the deep and it was a very big group. I think was over 30 people and I was held amazingly but it was quite difficult at the end when it comes to integration because you don't get the follow-ups because a portal is going to be opened after a session and I had quite a hard time integrating um and it was not conscious connected breath uh it was quite energetic but was with kundalini cuz it was quite intense I don't want to say that I had a bad exper experience had a lot of impact but

00:21:08

the integration was very difficult. So it was nothing like conscious connect breath and I got into conscious connected breath like a few years later because I was looking at a modality that could enrich my sound healing practice and I was actually looking into plant medicine and how I could use plant medicine to help people get in touch with the unknown parts of themselves. And then at one point I dove more into breath work and I was like I don't think we need plant medicine because the breath is so

00:21:47

profound that you can experience the same things very slowly but it teaches our body how to be connected with our baseline something what we have forgotten. And then I did more practice. I read more. And then I was in love with breath work. And I was looking at a mentor I could uh learn from. So I got into conscious connected breath. I was looking into London where I could find the most perfect fit. And I had no idea that I was looking for a decolonized practice. I didn't know much about it.

00:22:29

And after a lot of searching, I ended up at inspired breath work. And I had no idea that something like that exists. Um, and when I read more about how decolonized therapies would look like and social in body justice, I felt like that that's something I need to to study and train with like-minded people. So that's how I got into breath work. not immediate. I had some experiences not really sure about how I received it and ended up at a place where I was like okay this is a very special way of being

00:23:11

connected with our wisdom and things that we have forgotten. So that's actually how I got into conscious connected breath work. >> Okay. Thank you for that background. Uh I've always wondered actually what condundalini breath is. I've also heard of kundalini yoga. I've not had the opportunity to explore any either of these practices yet. >> Um but yeah, I imagine each of the breath work practices come with their own sort of intensity and um exploration. >> Yeah. But that feeling I resonate with

00:23:51

that I went into it and then I just fell in love with it at some point. So it had to happen. >> Yeah. And I felt like oh this is something I would like to explore. And with the other breath work types I felt like it does something to the nervous system. Yes. You will feel great or energized which is true but other things can also emerge. And I felt like okay where does that part go? What do I need to do with the emotional releases? what I'm going to do with the um with insights that I've gained you

00:24:24

know so there's a lot of integration questions around that and I don't feel a lot of people are informed that people can get different kinds of outcomes from breath work session so that's why I find the care and the intention that I have not to harm people like a very big thing what I'm doing with conscious breath is like super important to Okay. >> Yeah, I hear you. Um, some of this kind of uh places for me how you see the decolonial lens uh being different from some of the other work. But I am still

00:25:01

curious because this is still um what you define kind of starts to I think gnaw at that point. But I'm curious how um the decolonial lens has offered you things or what has it offered you that say other trainings or breath work sessions might not have. >> Yeah. So what I find like a very big thing about the colonized work is choice. choice and agency for the breather and also the respect that everyone's nervous system is different but also how you show up during a session is like a very short snap of how

00:25:40

you feel that day and how your nervous system looks like. So I feel like there should be like an acknowledgement and that has not been taken place in a lot of spaces where I've entered. So I find that a very beautiful thing is like okay we need to acknowledge that nervous systems are different. We have our different background stories and also did you had a good sleep today? Did you have some turbulent things happening in your uh in your life like that's also coming into play for your nervous system

00:26:14

and safety. Safety is something that we need to decide for ourselves. Um I find it I find it hard when people say this is a safe space. I'm like I don't think that you can say that. But people also don't know that safety is within the power of the breeders. So sometimes when people say this is a safe space then you say like oh this is safe because if there's a fire I can always leave you know. But safety is more than the material conditions within the space. It's the it's the body nervous system and the

00:26:51

agency that you can decide to breathe differently or maybe change your rhythm. That's also part of agency. So I think that were for me that you can say oh those are actually quite simple things but actually but very fundamental when it comes to spaces of what people call spaces of healing and practice. So that those were like the main things that mostly are not addressed during sessions and that's was something like oh my god that should be like very that should not be in the a difficult thing to do but

00:27:30

actually it's very difficult if you understand the complexities of why people don't feel safe and it's a very um how do you say that it's a very important topic I feel like people get uncomfortable to when they touch it, you know, like the safety of other people creating a little bit of distance. But I feel like if we are less daunted by it that we can easily create more decolonized spaces of practice and healing. It's it's beyond breakfast. It could also be yoga. It could be

00:28:03

meditation. It could be different kinds of spaces. Uh so that those were actually the first things I was like oh my god yeah I I did not realize that those things are very important what you can take outside of the classes and oh I have agency I have choice I can decide to do the practice my way like I can participate within the group but I decide today that this breath pattern can be deep or maybe I feel a little bit fragile let's not do that today. So those are the things I've really learned

00:28:36

from the colonized practice and it's just like a a part of the scala of things that we can offer as uh breath workers within this space. >> Yeah, thank you for taking me through that. um I found a deep resonance with that and also interestingly all the people I have interviewed so far and I don't know if literally every conversation this came up but the one of the biggest highlights in a lot of the conversations when we spoke about how we found this practice different was exactly this just the

00:29:14

choice and agency uh and how big a role it plays which also goes to show that yes um Like you said, it seems like a very obvious and simple thing, but it really has not shown up in a lot of the spaces we all have entered is why we've suddenly come here and felt like, "Oh, wow. This is so interesting and this is why we're staying." Yeah, I love that. I love that there's a common thread tying all of us and it is our own safety and our own agency. >> Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot to

00:29:50

do in in healthcare and wellness spaces for us to do it as a collective. So I hope that these kind of practices are going to be ripple that it becomes very common and normal for us to check in with each other on that level. doesn't need to be complicated. can be when you're setting a frame at the beginning of a class or things like that like something small and people will notice as in oh yeah I have agency because it needs time for you to understand that you have choice right and then over time

00:30:19

you don't need to say it anymore you can remind your breeders that they have choice and agency and even within the session they still have time to change their mind and that's something what we haven't learned in our lives you when it comes to giving consent and also taking a back when you don't feel like it you know sometimes you can feel unsafe in a situation after 10 minutes do I still have a voice to say to people like oh I want to to take it back and within these kind of spaces there is an

00:30:50

opportunity you know maybe you feel more safe next time for 10 minutes maybe you know like it's seeing how we can stretch the window of tolerance within that space and I think that's a very important thing to practice. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Yeah. when you were saying you talking just now about u consent and how how we can move how that can change so quickly I actually was reminded of that um session of that class we had with Hannah and since I'm um just behind you in the course I actually had this class

00:31:31

only say two months ago uh where we talked about consent and she was helping us um figure out how we will facilitate that consent for our breathers once we become facilitators. And it was such an interesting discussion that the cohort ended up having because we had so many ideas around it. But then also there were these realizations of like wow consent can really move within a second and it's so hard to name it and voice it when you're in the throws of a breath. Um and we came up with all sorts of ideas like

00:32:12

raising your hand or um having like color cards around you and then we decolonized that practice with oh if we're having color cards then maybe no is not red and it's suddenly just a purple and it was yeah it was really interesting and I love that there was space for us to do that. I love that Hannah's course um encompasses such topics that allow us not just just to lesson on oh this is what consent looks like. It also gave us so much space for discussion on these topics so that all of us could

00:32:52

I suppose embody the role of the facilitator in a much more collective sort of way like you just said like the collective actually helps so much in >> Yes. helping you learn all the ways you can go about. My brain has five ideas, yours has another more, another five, and then you end up finding something that you didn't think of, but actually lands much better for you than your own ideas. >> Exactly. And also when you're sharing it, it's like, okay, is it still ethical? Is it not? um you know like

00:33:24

just playing around because we never had that opportunity you know like one of the biggest things that's very different for us human beings is setting boundaries for ourselves you know so if you are getting better with setting boundaries and it will be easier to work with the with the consent piece you know like and understanding where power lies do I have the power do I give it over to someone else is someone else having power over me those are things that we're not it's We don't talk about it like on a

00:33:54

day-to-day basis. But when it comes consent, a lot of people say you give consent once and then you have consent the entire time, but we change. We our feelings change, our nervous system change. So because we're so fluid, I feel like the consent wheel and consent should be able to work its way through within fluidity of how we feel like in a session or in life in general, you know. Yeah. I had something coming up for me just now. Just going to take a moment. Um yeah, I feel like again this point you touched was so

00:34:46

relevant because there are so many things we say yes to before we get into the thing and that's where the role of informed consent comes in. How many things have we unknowingly said yes to from our work contracts to our rent leases, home leases where there are just these things we're signing because there just boilerplate. But there is a loss of a lot of consent there because each each word each line has a meaning that is defined by two different parties. two or more different parties, in fact,

00:35:32

not even just two. And then you're saying yes. And then once you get into it, you're like, "Oh, but this is not something I'm loving." And same with the breath. Like many times I've got into a session as the breather and I have wanted music because I know I like music. And then once we've started exploring the breath, 10 minutes in, I'm just finding that the music is actually scattering my brain a lot. and it's not not letting me land properly. And then I I don't want the music anymore. And in

00:36:05

that moment, because now you're in the middle of your breath, it's so hard to open your mouth. Like your lips don't move. It's the >> And then you're going to bring up the the color the color codes. >> Yeah. >> It's going to be yellow. Let's do Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, it's a bit like this, but at one point it's like blue. red, but it comes with practice, right? Um, and I also feel like that people don't want to interrupt the flow they're

00:36:36

in, but actually not giving the consent disrupts the flow. It's about timing. Get used to it. And also feel like you're not going to um sometimes people don't want to say how they feel like because they don't want to uh irritate the the facilitator but the facilitator is actually there to serve you. So that's also part of education and educating uh how people can voice themselves within the session because it's about them. It's breather. So, it's about practicing how they can stand up for

00:37:11

themselves with a session. Even if it's something as simple as I don't think I want the music because it's my nervous system is not coming down. I cannot focus. Then there should be space for that. Yeah. So, you did you manage to have the music off >> or you were Yeah, you managed. Okay. >> Yeah. Uh the first time this happened, I managed to voice it, say it, >> but I know there was a very big internal battle for me. Even though that felt like a lot of minutes, I know it was

00:37:45

probably just 15 seconds that my mind was thinking about it. But in in the middle of a breath, 15 seconds feels like a lot longer sometimes. Um, and in that time, yes, it wasn't that I didn't want to upset somebody else, but it's also like it it's different for everyone, of course, but some of us just have this nature of like I'm happy to adjust for this because it's not that big a deal. It's not such a big deal. And I think I did a little bit of that. And yes, then there were also bits of uh

00:38:23

Oh, but because this was also honestly during one of my fishbowl sessions where it happened for the first time and I was there. >> Yeah. >> And one of my cohort members was the facilitator and I was like, "Oh, but she's doing this for the first time. I don't want to make this so hard." But then I also realized that if I am able to say this right now, we might actually by the end of this session have a more connected experience. I would end up having a more connected experience. And

00:38:54

that kind of is the point of this. But I was able to have all these thoughts because I was 6 7 months into this course, right? I wouldn't have imagined myself to stand up this way in a different situation. And again, not not in situations where gender rights are to be fought for, cuz there I will stand up, I have always stood up. And if there is a person standing in front of me who's just absolutely with an absence of empathy and is saying things that you know just don't land well in that political sort

00:39:34

of way 100% I would stand up without a thought but this was someone I really care for and I care for their experience and they are super empa empathic and so then that inner dialogue was different. >> Yeah. But also for the facilitator al is also a case study thing like for in the fishbowl is also another example that breeders can change their mind um during a session. So hopefully it was also very insightful and and beneficial for the learning process of the facilitator cuz it's also part of it right it's it's

00:40:13

it's also part of your journey to see what's important to you to feel connected but it's also something for the facility to tap in. So for both ways it can be very good not just for you you know but good that uh that it worked out. >> Yeah it did. Yes. >> And then the other times where this has happened now like with my facilitator who I'm doing some sessions with, I've been able to we've been able to have a system of just me maybe raising my hand or um doing symbols for volume down and

00:40:49

stuff like that because there is a knowingness there. So that changed something. Yeah, it can be very subtle so you can still stay in your your rest state because if you're breathing you're already in a very relaxed state that you're not using too much of the body like very tiny or like maybe something like this very gentle could be nice cues you can you can use absolutely >> so yeah that bit about um not getting out of the rest state I think for me also That part is about having lesser cognitive overload because

00:41:27

there's so much that your brain is processing all the time. And in a lot of the breath work practice, what I've noticed is that we're trying to get away from the anal analytical mind and move into the parasympathetic. And yeah, the lack of cognitive overload really helps with that. >> So I do see the value in like not using words and instead just a gesture. Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. Um for just to clarify for me and for the listeners, you are in the second year of your course, correct?

00:42:08

>> Yes. >> Okay. And then this is the part where you are moving into facilitation and um >> and case studies. That's the so we are in our case study phase. I'm doing a lot of research for my thesis and also looking at how I can improve my sessions. So I have an offering that has been uh successful or tested by uh groups of people and individuals uh by the end of next year. Now the the end of this year's cohort which is in springtime. >> Okay, that's lovely. And so having been

00:42:56

through the first year over say I imagine you were in 2025 is when your first year was running. Looking back over that year, is there a unit specific unit or a class that you loved a lot uh that has stayed with you the most where something might have maybe shifted for you? Um the unit about seasons of oppression that was for me a very big thing. Not necessarily because I felt like that I as a brown woman has been oppressed by the system, but also how I contributed as someone within the system and that

00:43:41

whiteness also runs under my skin. That was the most difficult thing. What I've experienced is that the dismantling was also my job. It's not something that I will ask white people for example, which is most of that when you're a little bit younger. you have like the black versus whites or color versus white or global majority what we say now versus whiteness but it's I've learned it's a construct and that made it very difficult and it humbled me a lot so that was a very

00:44:12

difficult thing for me to to understand how I contributed within capitalism and also how I as a woman uh uphold patriarchy without even knowing that was tough I had a lot of sleepless nights, crying um about not knowing that I also kept those structures alive. So it's a lot of unconsciousness, you know, and and at one point I was like I just didn't know what I didn't know until I've done the work. And that was for me even beyond that unit. It kept on like the deepen the deepening what I had was

00:44:57

different like there's like a spiral. You're done with it and you go through the same unit again or another course that has something to do with how we look at empire and colonization then you have like a different understanding goes deeper and deeper like there's so much what I don't know about myself and the more I know and learn the less I feel I know less. So that was for me what what impacted me impacted me the most is that I have a lot of dismantling to do myself. >> This is the part you're referring to

00:45:31

where we did the power and privilege structure and >> where we what space we hold in it. >> Exactly. And also another uh unit which is outside of the the cohort was breathing beyond empire. >> Yes. That was very that was stuffed. And we did it every day with a cohort. Every day breathing every day uh contemplating reflecting and seeing things I've never seen before. But also if the the fill is lifted, you can also not see life the same way. uh and also this happened when uh the genocide in Kaza was taking

00:46:20

place. So it became more prominent in my life and how I as a as a citizen of Europe living in Empire which is the UK how we contributed. So that was that was very it was more than eye opening. It was about my identity or was as a human being that I have no idea that I was made numb to participate and to uphold it. That was for me tough. Very very tough. Just taking a moment to because the minute we speak about it honestly it's one of those things that comes alive very quickly. Yeah. >> Um, yeah.

00:47:13

>> Yeah. Even in our closest proximities, I think there are so many systems we are participating in that go by every day. It's just not even an afterthought. >> Absolutely. And that's that's the danger in it of not knowing how being aware >> and and every time I feel like okay how do I stand within my social location um what is my proximity to power is it of Paul's idea or does the system want me to victimize myself there's a lot of questioning in a lot of situations and I

00:47:50

think that was one of the most confronting things within in this course because when it when it comes to safety or how we connect with people, those there are things that you can practice and I feel like this is something when it comes to proximity to power and systems of oppression is that is indoctrinated within us. We I I grew up with it. If I look at how I got educated in the Netherlands, I'm from the Netherlands. I'm born and raised in Amsterdam. is that how the course curriculums were made up

00:48:26

is for capitalism to succeed in patriarchy and I did not know that. So it's like oh my god as a child we were indoctrinated and that's very tough to eat out you know it's like it has been building up my entire lifetime and then I have this course like okay I need to fix this within a year so this it takes also a process of dismantling I I cannot dismantle within one unit or within 6 months it might take few years for me to dismantle and find something else in place that can hold me and the newness

00:49:01

in how I look at the world. So there's also a lot of patience coming with that. >> Yeah. The patience to actually not just deconstruct but then also reconstruct a new >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, I hear you. That's a lot of work also. It's a lot of um actual work. It's not I think I want to reword that because all of this is also actual work but >> exactly >> I mean like very physically speaking as well and very um in your day-to-day speaking like so much of that takes a

00:49:43

change in your behavior towards the people you're interacting with. It ch it it asks for a change in the way you've structured your friend circles and communities so many times and how you're showing up in them. Uh who you're showing up for also. And so like I think that's what I meant by kind of work that it goes outside of the inner work and absolutely into this like very real visceral experience of >> doing with your words and hands and actions. >> Absolutely. And also be messy whilst

00:50:21

being in that process. Right. Because we we're not getting it perfect. We will not have the right words because a lot of experiences are beyond words. And if you look at different kind of languages and you need to translate it in another language like English is not my my native language. So I also there's maybe a loss of translation and I feel like with the integration and the process is that we also need to give each other like the grace of not having it right yet. So I think yeah being in the messiness

00:50:53

of that is something I find very charming in in the work what we're doing like it doesn't need to be perfect. >> Yeah. And what is that experience been for you? Um the the one about being a person of the global majority in a cohort. What did your cohort look like otherwise? Then how was it for you specifically? >> I think there only we are less of the global majority within the group. But I never felt that I was the minority. I'm using this because we are not a minority. We're the global

00:51:40

majority. is because within my life and personal spaces, I've moved within whiteness and found my success within whiteness that I didn't saw myself different. That's that's what I've seen in hindsight. That's what the system does to you, right? It's like you want to become successful as someone from the global majority, so you're going to follow the same rules within the structure of whiteness in going on top of the ladder of capitalism. And then I didn't see that

00:52:10

and when I was in the court I was like yeah I do stand out and also going back and disidentify from that it's like yeah so I we need to be very real that I have a very different experience of proximity to power even though I ended up at a place where I feel like everyone is equal but also we need to acknowledge that we're actually not. So we need to name it by what it is, you know, that white supremacy like nobody likes to talk about that, but it's it's it's reality, you know. So getting used about using

00:52:50

those words and also um acknowledging that yeah, in a lot of space, yeah, I am the only woman here and I'm the only woman that's not white. So I'm more confident in voicing that whereas it was not like that before because I wanted to blend in and I feel like sometimes a contrast needs to be acknowledged because that shows my awareness of the dynamics within power within a space even if it's a learning space if a space where we're breathing even if it's in a bus in an airplane or what whatever you

00:53:20

have I think the acknowledgement of that is something I have trained myself before it was not even a thing but I feel that That's an important thing in order to create change, to have debate about things, is to acknowledge what is not different before we go into like we're all the same, you know, like we we should stand still with um where there's inequality amongst people. I resonate with that experience so hard actually because even right from my admissions interview with Hana, this was

00:53:54

kind of part of that of how how if and how white supremacy plays out for me. Um, and there was a situational question she had asked in the actual interview. And my understanding also at the beginning before I got into the course was that I've actually grown up in um hubs of international tourism in India even though I've grown up in a brown predominantly brown country. It is a brown country. Yeah. Uh a brown country. And um but I've g I I did my childhood in in the capital of the country. So it was

00:54:37

a lot of exposure to the world. And then everywhere I've lived, they've been hubs of international tourism. So I've seen actually white people more than I've seen brown people at many of those places. at the moment where I live also is a global township which was founded by a European a woman from Paris um because she was learning under a guru from India but then because it was set up by a French woman actually the population is largely French and European um so I also actually had given her the

00:55:15

same answer I told Hannah that I don't think I I've ever felt a real impact of any of it. And I've not seen myself as lesser or more or lesser. Sorry, because that was the question. There's no way I'm feeling more than a white person or anything even by this thing. I mean, you know, in the social structure of things. Um, but that's what I had said as well. And then when we got to the unit around power and privilege structures and so much of the unfolding even before that I

00:55:55

had started realizing um how much I had just not addressed simply because I was part of these systems and it I just felt like I'm not impacted by it but I had been. >> Yeah. And what what I experienced of it is that I had this epiphany like oh so I am also privileged of the way that we are thinking both of us was because of the privilege you know and also acknowledging as in if we have privilege it means that it goes at cost of other people that hit me very hard and I was like okay I need to dismantle

00:56:41

like ASAP, you know. So that was also very confronting and my choice not to stay in discomfort is because I would like to see change. So if I would like things to change around me, it needs to start with myself. And it's like the most painful thing ever. The most painful thing. you know, if you see things in the social body, you need to address it in your own body first. >> And I was like, that hit me like double horse. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it has been one of the most beautiful realizations and acceptances

00:57:25

that I've had to accept through a lot of this work that what the part you just addressed anything if it exists in the social body it exists in you. >> Yeah. >> It's been really really very interesting for me to hold that truth. uh even when I came into the work there was just this underlying feeling that I hadn't addressed uh in actual words but very soon under the course I I did realize that was my truth around how I feel as an entity and that was that I feel part of a collective and there is a bigger

00:58:04

collective around me and I feel it and I want to tend to it want to be in service of it and so then for this truth to have emerged and for me to have the space to accept it that oh this makes sense if I am a collective that anything happening to anyone in the collective is happening to me it's only obvious. >> Yeah. >> Then also I don't know if you feel it deep in your bones like I don't want this journey to be any different. I had I had to experience the pain because that's part of like removing it from

00:58:40

under my skin you know. So even though this journey was very painful and confronting, I didn't want to have it any other way like this. At one point I just chose to do it. It's like okay it will hurt a little bit but this is part of per dismantling is we're just going for it and also understanding that we have a cohort supporting each other and for Hannah creating a space that we can support each other beyond borders. I find it amazing. >> Absolutely. I agree with that. To feel so connected

00:59:14

with people living in different continents is quite something. >> Yeah. And also what we're dealing with is universal. Even though we are not in Turtle Island or I am not in India, like we're all dealing with the same things. It just looks a little bit different, but we're dealing with the same same constructs of oppression and how we contribute. It's it's a it's a global thing. >> Yeah, >> I know. I feel it. I feel it in the back and I feel it like on my arms like it's

00:59:53

tingling. It's like a there's a fire also as in >> I'm very hopeful that >> we can change it. And I see a lot of people that are being interviewed in the media that people don't have don't have hope and they're trying to fight within the system and I'm like we can create a new system. We can create something totally new out of it, you know. So that's something what's very hopeful and also meeting more people on the journey in in in trying to dismantle or imagine

01:00:24

different kind of word worlds is like it's very hopeful. So I I feel like I mean we're doing it. So we're doing it. We're having this podcast. We're in this cohort. We're changing our awareness. We are rippling our thoughts to other people. Like it is happening. Maybe not in the same speed as what we want, but there is a lot of hope and optimism. And even though a lot of things are ripped under us, you know, like We can build beautiful things underneath it and show that the world can be

01:01:02

different by indigenizing like how does it look like and and go back to the roots where we're coming from and and learn what what true connection actually means being one with nature. So that's very helpful even though it was a very aggressive way in washing all those things out. also felt very connected with myself and with you and with other people, with the trees, with the cosmos, you know, like they were always there. I just I just forgot it a little bit. >> It's a little bit disconnected.

01:01:37

>> Yeah. Thank you for bringing that in uh in like really sweet words, but you just forgot it a little bit. Um because that also kind of goes back to how it's been already passed down through through lineage and bodies and so there's no way you didn't know it. You just have forgotten it a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Or been made to forget it a little bit to be honest. >> I think made to forget because I feel like when the body is screaming for attention, you can call it a burnout or

01:02:12

there's like resistance. is actually the body trying to communicate for your wellbeing. We just didn't we don't understand what it's trying to say. Right? And I feel like with breath work, we learn different kinds of communications beyond using words. We're using sensation. We're using energetic awareness like there are so many ways how we can communicate and that are different kinds of languages you know. I think that that has been very very um beneficial for me to understand that

01:02:46

different ways to communicate and my body always told me when I had a burnout this was actually was screaming like girl capitalism is not your thing but I was like I just don't know I need to I need to pay my bills I was working in advertising like I made a lot of money like this is the only way to go and the body was like no the body was screaming to me like girl you need to hug trees you need to swim in water, you need to find other ways. But I didn't know that, you know, like I had to learn it the

01:03:14

hard way. I had to learn the hard way. >> That's what a lot of people within society is is experiencing with health issues. It's the body calling for help. We just not listening to it, you know. So that's like a very big thing what I've learned. And everybody needs to go through their own process and I try to be there to hold it if they want to breathe with me or friends would like to have conversations with me you know it's like everybody within their own time um and meeting people where they where they

01:03:51

are because it's a very difficult topic I think >> um I find it very difficult to have those conversations with my peers you know they find those topics super heavy. Talk about capitalism, oppression, genocide, very very big words. Whiteness, white supremacy. Oh, can we touch those words? I'm not politic. I'm not political. But like we're all political. The food we eat is political. Organic food political. Uh human rights what we have like that's everything is political.

01:04:26

It's just political. >> Everything is political. So I al also try to be very you know find the right timing in in in so that's also what I what what I've learned with with breath work is the language the readiness also when I'm facilitating you know finding the right words in guiding people like what kind of words land it's all language also in talking about disease we live in why we are all six because we're trying to push ourself into like a pretzel within the system and we just cannot do it. Um

01:05:04

this has everything to do everything to do with language and it's also something I am diving into in the English language um and other languages that are more poetic and how culture and philosophy goes into the words, you know. So I learn about language politics and how it resonates and how we can use language in spaces of nourishment and and healing. So that's also something what I've learned a lot. Um, yeah. What I've learned the other day, I don't know if it's real, but it's just

01:05:41

like emerging is, um, because I speak Dutch and I speak Indonesian and I speak English and there are if you translate certain kind of words, it doesn't resonate. And then someone I know told me that the English language is actually made for accountancy. So, it's like very capitalistic. So you see so there is no room for poetic if you if you listen uh to Arabic or how or people uh if people communicate like for example Persians it's very poetic it's because the the language has been used for other

01:06:27

things the culture and the philosophy seeps into the into the words and I was like oh my god that's so interesting you know um in how we're going to bring works words and poetry within breath work sessions. I find it fascinating. I find it so fascinating and then the resonance that goes to the words I was like it blows my mind. Um and that's also how I think about how we are caught into capitalism is also a language. It's a very limited language. Um, if you look at English, that's like the one of the main

01:07:04

main languages to connect people. And I'm like, oh, it would be different if it was Spanish. Can you imagine if if it was Spanish language, then there's like a resonance within the words, the resonance in our bodies. Um, so, so within the system of oppression, I was also thinking about language. And I've learned so much about how people are poetic and how it affects how it how we receive words, how we manifest things. Like I'm going totally off piece, but this is also like a very

01:07:35

big thing that >> not at all >> that I have learned from from from language. It's incredible. >> It's also like >> at all though. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Please go on. Yeah. >> Yeah. I loved it. Um because within our cohort, Hannah is also challenging us to write more, write more poetry, express ourselves, especially with the rise of people using uh AI in TEDTP and it's like language preservation. I think that's a very important thing. Language preservation and also how we

01:08:15

try to preserve our emotions within the written word. So I thought so I I started to write write more and ask less online and just be like what does my imagination say if I would like to express something like it can be messy but at least it's coming from me and not from my friend chat or my friend Claude you know that's it's an absolute way of resistance at this moment to fight against AI to do things with your own creativity instead of AI is an act of resistance. Yeah, it is the only way we are able to sort of

01:09:03

I suppose challenge what is being called development because the idea of development in my mind is not going deeper into technology while there's no drinking water for half the world like you it's a basic survival need. Clean air and water is a survival need. It doesn't beyond that. There's no >> Yeah. >> luxury or joy or anything it's evoking. It's just survival to begin with. >> Absolutely. I was thinking about it the other day and I found it actually wild.

01:09:39

Everybody's thinking about we need to do more within 24 hours. Everything needs to be like faster. And I'm like we're at a point now where people are prioritizing cooling data centers with water. And water is a it's a a right of us. Also, it's one of the elements that is very sacred to us, water. Um, and I'm like, and people want to go to space and go to Mars. I'm like, why are we not just going back to basics and just learn how to garden, just walk barefoot, you know, in the season, it's summer.

01:10:15

Yeah. just simplify, you know, like there are some ways that technology can be very beneficial for things that we don't like to do. But when it comes to qu Yeah. Or when it comes to expressing human connection, how we connect with ourselves, how we express, how we connect with each other. I'm a purist when it comes to that. Like I don't and it's something what we need to practice. And I feel like people also don't trust themselves in doing that. and they're like, "Okay, I will just

01:10:46

ask what I need to feel or ask what I need to do." And I feel there's like a danger because we get more disconnected because we're going to give the power away to a machine whereas I'm like maybe you just could meditate a little bit like maybe for 20 minutes and then you have all the answers within within you. So there is a very big part what what what what changed in how I see life is how we can reconnect with our creativity and how we age. But those things are the the most difficult things and the most

01:11:23

vulnerable things is just to be connected with with ourselves and with other people and people be like I get like the yeah but that's what we need. technology can be like amazing but like human connection that's that's the most important thing that's how we survive as human beings. Um and without that we there is no specy for us to to use technology on or something like it will it will not will not be there. So this is what's like going through my mind since I started the course.

01:12:06

It's crazy. Um, yeah, I I cannot think different. So, dinners with me are very different. All the conversations we're going to have, so these kind of things, we're not talking about what kind of color towels you want for your kitchen, those kind of things. Or that you would like to organize your books in the colors of the rainbows. I think these kind of topics sucks. Those are like meaningful things because I also would like to understand where people are at people that are not uh doing the colonized works like how

01:12:37

how are they in how are they standing in life right now? How they see the world uh so it's also out of curiosity and not necessarily for me to like this is what I've learned and I want to like project to other people. I also like the curiosity as in where people are at and how they see the world. I find fascinating. >> Yeah. And it doesn't take too many minutes of conversation for that uh way of all come up and for you to give your two cents. It's actually quite easy. I do it really.

01:13:07

>> It's very easy. Yeah. And then we can just order another pizza and then we talk about I don't know your favorite dish. It can be so many things. No, but this for a lot of people very daunting. So I also try to normalize talking about these kind of things because it affects us in the world. Um yeah, I do love talking about about politics. >> Yeah. >> But I don't >> it gives it also helps us it what from what I've realized from my own experiences and something I employ in my

01:13:42

life a lot is it also allows me to assess which of these people have the capacity to actually show up as community. And then those are the friendships I want to invest in and I want to build because yes I can hang out with you but one it's not nourishing because we're because there's so much like holding back when anything vulnerable is coming up >> and then it gives space for political conversations to happen and I'm quite clear in my mind that I am a political person and I believe the world is

01:14:18

political and everything is political. So if I'm sitting with somebody who does not think that then I'm quite okay to create space between that exchange because I know it doesn't align with me. It doesn't I don't have to think they are wrong. I don't have to condemn them for anything. I just get to make that choice for myself at least of what I'm allowing into my clos space. >> Yeah, absolutely. like how more authentic you come across than that's who you are and you you also never know

01:14:51

sometimes your friends will come back in like two years time it's like I'm I'm resonating right now I actually understand what you're talking about and they will come to you you know so that's it also has something to do with their own space and time so for me instead of stopping being political I dialed it down a little bit but I will still let people know how I show up so if they feel a need when they're ready. I also would like to keep the door open as in I am here for you because I have it with a

01:15:21

lot of friends that um our conversations became quite uh superficial and surface level but they still um hear me like when I'm on social media when I'm conversations that they still know what kind of topics are very uh are of interest of me and then they experience their own lives. they go on another path and they come back like, "Oh, Ambad, I've experienced something and I think I understand what you're trying to say." Um, do you have time to listen to my experience? And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm

01:15:56

very happy to listen to it." So, I feel like I don't want to dim it. I will do it. I just I will just dial it down because I feel like I'm very open of this conversation where people feel the need to do it. I I'd still like to be there for people, you know. >> Yeah. >> I'm gonna I'm not gonna push it. >> Absolutely. >> I have a bunch of things that have been floating in my mind from something actually six minutes ago. >> Go for it. >> Yeah.

01:16:25

>> Yeah. >> Um, one thing you said about language. That is the research I was also reading actually how differently a child's brain grows up depending on what language it's learning in because the kind of poetry that moves in language changes the way creativity moves in that mind and that was really interesting to me and that brought me to this really uh very personal experience that I had over the last month. I had joined a summer singing group that this person was hosting in my vicinity and uh she was

01:17:04

meeting each one of us that she hadn't worked with before just for a pre-talk. So we met for 30 minutes and all she said was that there's no real big structure to the thing. We were doing four classes a week for a whole month. So it was a lot of like you know commitment and there was no commitment like oh you can't miss a class but for me that there is a commitment when I am saying yes to something I'm saying yes accepting that I would like to show up as much as possible in that hopefully

01:17:35

all of it and I did show up for all of it but her understanding also was that we're just exploring our voice we're exploring how different parts of our body feel when we're using our voice and Maybe along the way, you'll find yourself finding tune and rhythm and connecting with different parts. What I didn't know going into it was just the most beautiful things. We were doing this in her house, which she also uses as her studio. Uh, and there was she was doing two groups, so there was about

01:18:06

seven, eight of us in one group. and we would meet at the end of the day at around 7:00 p.m. Um, right from the first day till the last day that I attended firstly, we all left energized at 8 8:30 every night, which you would think is a little crazy for something you're doing four times a week at the end of the day. But not one of us had a different experience. Everyone, even if we walked in tired that day, we left with more energy somehow. There was just so much rejuvenation and she did like while all the practices

01:18:41

were there was a lot of somatic practices in that also because she also brings in body work as one of her practice modalities uh and her just her practice was so well embodied. It was so beautiful to witness. And we moved through six different songs uh because she just wanted to help us understand how pitch works and how you can flow through a word in a different tune. And they were just basic practices like these but she was doing it through songs. And the six songs we learned were all in six different languages. We went from

01:19:17

English to Persian uh to Serbian to Spanish to then one other language that I can't even recall um but it was another Arabic language and each of those experiences were just so beautiful because we were suddenly all using different words and then she was also taking us through which line she loves the most because this is what it means. And then we were like, "Wow, that is so beautiful." Because when she was explaining to us what it means in English, there was almost no beauty to that line.

01:19:58

But the way we were singing it, because she wanted us to be able to sing it with that feeling, she was explaining the meaning because we didn't know it. But the feeling still got felt more when we said the words in the language it was from. And it was just one of the most interesting experiences for me because um while this person has not done any special work with decoloniality um her practice was completely decolonized from the idea of there's no real intention, there's just space to explore

01:20:36

to everyone having their space to explore in whichever state they feel like. There was sometimes where one of the people passed out during humming also because it happens because while you're humming and you're lying down because you you were feeling through the thing and you're allowed to lie down and we're lying on the floor and one of my friends did pass out during one of the sessions because she was just like tired from her day and that but she still showed up because there was energ like she did

01:21:05

want to show up. Yeah. But it was all acceptable. It was such a beautiful decolonized practice. I think I just really wanted to share that and also that language bit really brought it out for me. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. I also like to go to a class like that you know like a session that's al that's why um in a lot of places people use mantras you know in Sanskrit because it's the resonance in there but there are so many other languages >> um that you have that you know like there's so many beautiful language in

01:21:38

the world that we can bring into these kind of places um and for of people to reconnect with their own lineage then Uh >> then from India from Sanskrit or like the ball around that area is beautiful language is beautiful. Did you also dance by your you're moving like or >> there was like it was different every day. Uh but there was parts where we were moving our bodies also while we were singing something because she wanted bodies to feel free and because her understanding of these things is

01:22:12

that your voice just lands different with every kind of body. We had very interesting practice. We worked in pairs, in trios, alone. Um, it was just really beautiful. I could go on and on. Maybe we'll just talk about this some. >> Yeah, we can take it offline and just talk about this. Yeah, >> I'm very intrigued. >> Just so embodied and so beautiful. And now, actually, I offered her some breath work sessions uh because that it was a sort of exchange for her attending her

01:22:43

sessions. Uh, and I'm so excited to be starting that with her because this is a person who already appreciates decoloniality whether she knows it or not. >> Yes. >> Um, >> and what got her excited about it was the idea that it's breatherled. So that already kind of, you know, lands well for why someone is coming into this work. >> Yeah. And another thing that came up for me while you were talking about the second part of um how you keep space open because people can sometimes

01:23:19

feel and resonate with your thoughts, political thoughts two years from that time. I've also noticed there's this one small caveat where I've sometimes met people and this is someone I actually met this experience got repeated in life when I recently met someone who is now becoming a friend but he comes from um a very different part of the country than I do and a very different life experience um a different social I no sorry a different economic class as well um and a different cast and I know that because

01:23:56

there was conversation around how that has played out in his life. Um and because he's a local from the region I am living in. His English is very different from mine. His English he it's very like it's very conversational but also it's not his first language. It's not his core language. And so now that we are interacting, there's so much that goes a miss in that conversation. But when I'm getting to know him, I am realizing that his politics is actually exactly the same as mine. So there's

01:24:33

also space for that that sometimes the words that person is speaking are not landing well because English is not his first language. So he does not know that it's not landing well. But his action and his behavior is all landing really well. So there's also like I suppose space that we're holding for those experiences, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's like because we're more than the words we use. is like >> the resonance we give out um the actions what people notice how we behave

01:25:07

um how we take care of each other you know having care that's also showing something without using any words or language that's also what I like about this training is that we are so much more than words if people are not really good in using the words there's some more other ways you can be connected or that you can share share how aligned you are with someone else and there are so many so many ways. >> Yeah, it's really beautiful and I just like you brought up so much for me like

01:25:38

because everything you were saying I was like oh my god I have a story about that I have a story about that I must talk about it. Yeah, thank you for that cuz both of these have been really beautiful experiences for me, >> the singing group and meeting this new friend and it was really refreshing for me to uh recollect you. >> Beautiful stories. Thank you for sharing. Warms my heart you know like >> warms my heart. >> Bringing the focus a little bit back to you also. Do you feel like a break or

01:26:10

anything? Do you want to use bathroom? >> No, not right now. >> Okay. >> I will I will sign very gentle. >> You go to the toilet. Um, no. Do you need to go to the toilet? Do you need to like stress? I'm also okay. I have my water here. >> Yes. So, >> yeah, we can continue. Um so what I find so interesting about your particular background is that you are you came in already holding so much uh the sound healing the psycho synthesis counseling um yeah and then breath work firstly I'm

01:26:54

curious what came first and what came after just to get a sense of how that journey went for you Um yeah. >> Yeah. So sound came first. >> Okay. >> Because I was looking for um I was looking for something to support me. So a few years ago when I moved from Amsterdam to London, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And when I received that news, I wanted to learn more about how to process stress and how do I need to go to the trajectory going to the hospital. So I got into meditation

01:27:42

and a lot of reading about frequencies about quantum physics. There was there was the things I got a little bit obsessed about, you know, because I felt like I didn't have control about my health, but where do I have control over like this mental understanding of the situation? Um, and I was very afraid and practicing to be present was something that was very well available to me that I could give myself and I could not ask for my friends and family. It was also within the pandemic. So, we were living

01:28:14

isolated. um we couldn't touch each other. I had to go to the hospital by myself and my friends and family dropped me off at the entrance and I had to go through the process by myself. Um and then I was looking at ways that could comfort me and nourish my nervous system. So listening to sound baths, gong baths became a thing and I was very interested how vibrations and frequencies could um support our bodies. And then when the when the isolation got lifted, I I got opportunities to go to soundbox. And

01:28:53

that's actually how I got in touch with soundbox and sound healing and how it benefited me within my personal journey. And I was still uh I got back to work. I was still walking through the capitalistic system. And I thought maybe it would be interesting for me to start a training next to my work. And then when you start with something like that, so many things open about reality. It's like life and and what's the concept of death because I got very close to what death could mean. I looked death into the eyes. I

01:29:29

was like, okay, how I'm going to make my life more meaningful and purposeful is to finding ways to that open my heart was sound healing. And then what came first. I think the interest of um people and relationships became a very big thing because those were the things that supported me through the process of having cancer. And I was like, am I going to work in advertising until I'm old? I'm like, no. I think if I work in therapies, I I think I'm becoming better because I'm going to be very embodied with the

01:30:05

practice. So then I got into um my psychotherapy training and to be specific the modality psychosynthesis because that's a modality where the soul and wholeness of human beings are a very much appreciated thing where we don't only look at the pathology and our history that make us who we are but that there's a plethora of different kind of things of us as beings. So we can tap into creativity possibilities and looking forward not just backwards and just integrating all those qualities

01:30:41

that we have either suppressed or that we haven't found yet. So I thought it was very interesting. Um and then breath work come came in and out came in and out and then at one point um when I was looking for something that could hold these modalities what I was already practicing I was already qualified and got into the training um that's how I got into breath work and I work with different kinds of people. I work with people that um had diagnosis. It doesn't need to be cancer. Um I live in the city so a lot of things

01:31:19

are about dealing with anxiety and uh I work with a lot of people that are neuroexpansive like with neuroexpansive minds. That's a a different word for people who are um neurode divergent people with ADHD, autism, dyslexia. uh in one word their nervous system works different. It's it's they're not they they don't fit in the system. There's nothing wrong with them. So I find it very interesting to work with those people. And breast work is a field we we we use. We all have it. We

01:31:59

don't need to have medicine or other kind of things to enhance our feeling to explore our inner world. I think is a very beautiful thing and what I find very beautiful is that uh the breeders get tools. So, what I always do when I um when I have one-on-one sessions or group classes is I guide people with the basics of breath work. It's like we're going to build your rock sack and we're going to put like some stuff in and you got to master all the things you have in your rock sacks like safety, grounding,

01:32:33

how you're breathing, setting boundaries and then we're going on a journey. you're going going to the forest on a journey and then you can decide if you're going to run or if you're going to walk, you know. Uh so I I use those analogies as in we're going to make sure that you have a back you feel comfortable with and you go to a journey. I'm going to guide you but you have the agency to accelerate or not. And that's what I really love about breath work is the control what breeders have uh of their

01:33:06

own journey because that also contributes to their sense of agency because if they feel that they progressing is actually also an acknowledgement that they are reclaiming their their their power and reclaiming something that has been lost or something they have forgotten and something that needs to be remembered. So that's what I really love about breath work is giving the tools, you know, for people just to explore. They can go deep if they want. They can stay on the surface level if they feel

01:33:34

comfortable, you know, but I will still be there to hold that space so they can decide how deep they go. So um yeah, I I it was the right time. Sometimes I feel like, oh, I should have gone into breath work a little bit sooner. But like I think there's like a timing why I followed this order and then ended up at not just breath work but also this dismantling system of oppression within me and questioning my my um proximity to power and those kind of things. So that's my journey and um I decided to leave my advertising

01:34:15

backgrounds behind. I still can lean into it if I want to. Um if there are interesting projects, I'll I will say yes if they're interested, but I find I found purpose in what I'm doing right now. and it calls me and it's the first time I had purpose and a calling and it feels right to do that and I'm I'm trying to to navigate that actually. >> I'm so happy to hear that story and that journey. >> Yeah, that has been quite a wild ride. It's like oh my god you've been to so

01:34:57

many places. like I've been I didn't share it a lot with a lot of people because it was so personal and I feel right now that it's the time because I feel so safe within myself that I um I'm open to share it because I think that will resonate more uh than saying to people breath work is good for you because it's good for your nervous system it's going to no I think the human stories and narrative that comes with it is why people would like to work with us or work with me or you know feel safe in

01:35:35

exploring because I have experienced those things in my life right so I feel like this is the time for me to bring myself more within the practice and not be afraid of it and I feel I feel more comfortable now in in sharing my life story why breath work has been very profound for me and that I would like to give it a go for people who haven't tried it before. It's beautiful. Very life very life-changing. >> A there's so much joy inside me honestly for uh that part where you said I feel

01:36:17

so much safety inside me that made me smile from inside. I'm so happy that you're in that place and definitely there is value to human stories and that's kind of why this podcast even exists because I do feel like listening to someone's story does something for us that um nothing else kind of can >> and prescriptive content can't do that. But anecdotes and stories really have that power. And also a joke played out in my mind around and what history does Claude come with that we must listen to

01:36:58

Claude. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. There are no personal stories there, >> right? >> Might as well listen to these ones. Yeah, >> absolutely. the OG's, you know, we have the OG's also because there is I think for these kind of stories to exist is for us to to be vulnerable and for us to allow to be scared and have fear and not to be perfect and be messy. >> That's the only way for us to connect, right? I think no cloth can help us with that one. Like this is

01:37:39

Right. Because we're dealing with the same things. It just it just has a very different container. >> Yeah. >> We all deal with fear, insecurity. >> Yeah. >> How it moves in the body. Like it's for everyone. It's the same. Um Yeah. How do you feel with sharing in general your your personal stories within the work that you do? Is do you feel comfortable with that? Are you still Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I'm almost an oversharer and as I get older I've had to teach

01:38:12

myself what can be shared where. Um and I've learned to protect my energy over time. >> Mhm. Also, that came from a lot of experiences with men to be honest because there was so much energy drained through my formative years in that process of the male gaze, of their presence, of how my body was conditioned to behave in those interactions, interactions, relationships, friendships, all of those spaces. Um, and so I think energy protection came for me as a learning I had from my own life

01:38:55

and from watching other women around me also. I've been lucky to have some really badass friends who have really really taught me the way. Um, and with the stories, I think I've had to almost pull back sometimes because I know I'm oversharing and I then >> it's not the right time, >> not appropriate. Yeah. >> Yeah. I've kind of now learned to like find that balance of okay, does this is this the space for this story? Um, also is this the person where it will land

01:39:31

well? Um, also am I in a space where if I share this and someone responds to it, how open am I to any response? >> Mhm. >> Any kind of response? Because sometimes you, you know, you're around people who are not your people. And so then talking about a vulnerable story can be a loss of agency or safety around someone's response to it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So those kind >> I do agree. >> Yeah. So those kind of discernments I've learned to make now. But yeah, I'm super

01:40:11

comfortable with vulnerability. I've also seen it as one of the most powerful things one can um either be born with or incultate as a skill. Yeah, >> because it really has allowed a lot of the people in my life to feel at home also. >> Mhm. >> And although for me it was something that I was born with and maybe my social environment growing up allowed me to keep doing it and didn't like, you know, kill that part of me. Um, and so to be able to walk into your friends lives and be that person and

01:40:55

then see them reflect some of it or even appreciate it and then go like, okay, this allows me to open up even though I haven't been that person. It's a beautiful experience and I've h I've had the opportunity to view it so many times with friends that I've absolutely accepted that it is a power and I want to keep it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Good to hear because it's going to enrich the the purpose what you're what you're following you know like I don't I don't

01:41:29

want to call this the work life's work is of like work you know like it's very important that you already feel very comfortable with your authenticity you know even though sometimes there should be filters put in place you know but that's that's part of discernment right like discernment is also a thing what we would like to remind our breeders of. So by us practicing it our with ourselves, we can meet people as in oh let's practice discernment and how to um few things at the moment. Is it the

01:42:03

right thing to do? Not what feels safe is not but also what is very skillful for us to to show or not. Um you know like if you would like to achieve something like is also finding that balance in in it. um sharing something that could help someone else grow and sometimes like oh we can we can save that for another time when when they're ready you know so yes beautiful thing thank you for sharing >> thank you for asking >> it's nice to have that space also >> um I I'm I've also this is something I

01:42:43

have been thinking about and Um, it's really great actually that I get to do this with you because I'm part of the same course and I keep thinking of like, oh, what what what would this part of the course be like? And then I get to speak to someone who's one year ahead of me and I'm like, oh, I can ask all my questions now and >> get all the insight I need. >> Yeah. I mean, in the end, it's all about your personal experience, right? So, this is that the training is also very

01:43:16

experiential and also for us to trust what we are experiencing that it can be the truth that it doesn't we don't need any science or stuff to prove that it's our truth you know so I think it's very important but yeah ask away yeah >> yeah but I am I am curious uh as a person and a sucker for stories so it always helps just to even get creativity flowing to hear from people um so this research research thesis that you're working on at the moment as part of your training in the second year. Um I just

01:43:52

want to know more about it. Uh what what is it about and what made your attention to that specific subject so imperative? >> Yeah. So um I have different questions for my for my thesis. So I'm researching a lot of things at the same time. Uh so I live in London and what I've noticed it's very difficult in a city to integrate and that are that I I would like to see more spaces that are less white wellness and I don't want to say it needs to be diverse. I want it to be inclusive.

01:44:35

Um so what I've been uh looking around is and and testing with individuals and with groups is why for example people of the global majority of people with a certain kind of intersectionality don't feel safe or don't feel a calling to go to to breast work classes and where that's coming from. So that's like a big thing what I am researching right now. And even though I have a hypothesis and a strategy, I learn new things when I'm with the people and I'm like, "Oh my

01:45:07

god, that's also like an important thing where people don't feel safe." So I run a cohort right now with people that are uh the people with neuro neuroexpensive minds. So what I've mentioned earlier, people that are neurody divergent and this this project I call it beyond the binary because you have neurotypical and neuro diver like we are we're the colors of the rainbow like we're not just one of the two and I felt like if I'm working closely with this group of people that all the the challenges they

01:45:44

are running into when it comes to uh breast work spaces it will also apply to the global majority. because the global majority has been excluded from a lot of spaces. Not intentionally, but how places are decolonized is just not welcoming. Or at least what I've also noticed is that if I'm asking the question, why they are not going to the classes? Sometimes people don't even have the language to express why they're not going to those spaces. And then in the end I figure out it's

01:46:16

about safety and about um safety and acknowledgement and it can be accessibility >> it is access it's accessibility um it's also language so accessibility comes with language as well and how um breath work sessions are given like the the language they use doesn't always resonate with people >> uh >> oh yeah I meant accessibility in like a larger sense for like if if a session is tailored to a neurotypical mind then it is kind of hard for any other kind of mind to access it in a true sense

01:46:55

>> for for example you know like um what I've learned from the cohort of neuro expensive people is that they can they the breath work sessions that are made that are I don't want to say colonial but for people with a nervous system that's more um neurotypical. It's very diff difficult for them to to to go along with it, you know. Um, so that was I found it very interesting and it has been very frustrating for them because breast work was just not a thing for them because they

01:47:30

it went too fast or the whole thing about safety has not been addressed or how to take care of your nervous system at the beginning of the class and set a framework what it actually means to be safe like that has been um not even included you know so there was not a sense of care for them. So that's um what I'm what I I'm in my early stages of my case studies. I facilitate groups um and one-on- ones and there there is a lot of um overlaps if I'm thinking about uh people that are

01:48:10

narrow expansive and people from the global majorities that we we are intersectional. If we look at the wheel of privilege, it's like okay they're intersectional we're with with our intersectionality and then I would like to have a good understanding how I can tune into groups. So it's going to be very beneficial for the entire group and not oh yeah I cannot do it because it doesn't work but like if I if I look at a lot of somatic exercises some don't land well for people that have autism versus to

01:48:44

someone who's neurotypical you know because the cues they follow it's for people with uh that have autism they need to have um a different kind of feedback. So they need to use their body and how the body responds is a feedback for them to focus on their breathing. Whereas people that have ADHD or are diagnosed or maybe they're on the spectrum of AU DHD or ADHD is they need to count you know like it is it is actually not difficult but a lot of facilitators are not even thinking about

01:49:18

how they can facilitate breath work because they only think about what the effect is on the nervous system but not how it's going to be like guided. So there's so much for me uh to learn from um and also reminding people of their agency and their power like throughout the class is a big thing um throughout the whole trajectory but also for them to feed back on it should be like an ongoing loop I find um especially if you would like if I would like to have classes to be more engaging is I I I'm I don't have the authority

01:49:59

because I stand here and I guide you. This is like a collaboration what we are doing. So I find it very important for them to in real time being able to share their experiences. Oh that worked for me that didn't work or maybe I would like to more of that and less of that and being open for that. I think that would be like the next thing in um facilitating healing spaces or spaces of nourishment is that is more dialogue and then you can make it more fun because instead of them breathing with

01:50:32

you they can bring themselves in and I feel that's also a part of making community. It's not just oh I'm going to organize events and people are coming. No, it's about how people can contribute with their intersectionality because I care. I care for people to be heard because they've been treating different treated different and they have been oppressed by classes how they're giving like oppression is not only like oh the government oppression is also I cannot I cannot join this class I it doesn't

01:51:03

work for me that's also oppression because there will be less opportunity for you to breathe and practice in collective you know so system oppression is is is very big is also about accessibility, you know, like if I would like to give classes, I would like to have people in wheelchairs being welcome or, you know, people that have broken their legs during a ski accident, you know, like it's accessibility comes in many ways. It's literally accessibility is the language that I use. It is how I uh give

01:51:39

people that they can give themselves permission to show up and how they contribute to my classes. It should be like a fun thing and interesting. So there's so much I'm exploring whilst writing this thesis, but in the end it's about how the system of oppression has affect healthcare and um wellness spaces and finding an alternative for um white wellness. So that's >> really wholesome. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um I really appreciate you taking me through that. >> Yeah.

01:52:16

>> Um it's very interesting. The next episode that I will be recording is actually with a practitioner who works in special education >> and is neurody divergent themselves and I feel like it's the theme of my week then and I love it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because these are topics that uh actually haven't by default they've not been touched upon so far. um in the seven six six episodes that we've done before this. So, it's really interesting for me to

01:52:56

explore something more that I care about because these are definitely things I deeply do care about as well. And then to learn that your thesis also revolves around um more expansiveness, which is also what you used, right? The word neuroexpansive is what you said. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Neuroexpensive miles. Yeah. >> I'm curious if that is the same as neurospicy. Is that another way that is used? >> I think neurospic is what people call themselves when they are neurody divergent because it's like a more maybe

01:53:34

more queer queer wording of it. But neuroexpensive is more if I'm looking at the best decolonial sense is neuroexpensive because it's it's a spectrum, right? Because if we're looking at neurotypical and neurodyiversity of two, you're just one or the other. And we're not like that, you know. And I feel also that people are getting a little bit lazy in trying to box people because that's just convenient. I'm like, no, no, no. People come in so many shapes and colors and I

01:54:08

think as facilitators it's our responsibility for us to hold that. It's not just oh the safety if people is or people are going to um uh how do you say that have like trauma releases or the other things what facilitators can hold like there's so much what we can hold and also because there's a responsibility for the breather to hold themselves within that you know so I don't I feel like it's also very important for us to hold people in that difference but yeah I like to use the word uh neuroexpensive

01:54:41

uh and also because I'm learning a lot about other cultures and how they include people with autism and ADHD. So if I look at the people of Mauri people or the CE tribe from the first nation in Turtle Island is um it's not a bad thing you know like maybe people say oh neurode divergence doesn't fit in capitalism because they work different. Yeah but people have other gifts. their gifts of connection and and things like it. I'm like, "Oh, I can learn so much about the poetry of what

01:55:18

what what what people see in people that have autism, all the gifts they have, what we are not having and how we can be reminded of that we have those gifts themselves from people who are who are I don't like I don't like the word diagnosed. It's like something is wrong with them. There's nothing wrong. is they just operate different in life and very different in the system that we as society have built. I find it very >> not even different, right? They just operate how they operate and you perhaps

01:55:46

operate different. >> Yeah, these a different operating system doesn't mean that it's bad. And also what I've noticed during my research is that a lot of people around me um are either not diagnosed but they're on the spectrum and they have they have mited. So there's all another layer of there's a lot of um oppression there as well is that they must themselves not being authentic just to fit in. It's a very difficult thing. Uh and I help to uh help people navigate that. That's also

01:56:19

something what I've um what I've learned about about that. So system of oppression goes in many ways not just the global majority but also all the yeah how we are different from everyone you know it's like how we're going to make it how are we going to make breast work in a way that everybody can enjoy it you know and I understand that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't want to hear this that I'm like it's it's something what we have it's free it's sacred it's beautiful

01:56:52

and especially those people that don't fit this this will be very transformative. Yeah, that's I'm very I'm very passionate about it. >> Yeah, it does sound like it. I was just going to say that that sounds like some really embodied and wonderful work and uh I was super engrossed listening to you right now because it felt like stuff I'm so interested in as well. >> Yeah. Um yeah, I'm so happy that there is someone taking on all of this and uh feeling so excited about taking it on. I love that

01:57:26

so much. Um >> yeah, >> if you if you've heard of Aloko Menon >> Oh yes. >> Yes. So they have this uh beautiful joke that they do where they talk about uh I think straight people should be coming out and not queer people. And I think that's what came to my mind right now when I we were talking about how, you know, they they're they're different or they get diagnosed and all of that. How irrelevant it is because it's like you were born normal according to

01:58:02

society is what you should have to profess. >> Exactly. >> That you were born the way you were born like in a more fun way or exciting way or however even if they're not fun or exciting. The point is literally every person is different from every other person. So what even are we trying to say is a normal? >> Exactly. >> I find them very inspiring. I went to uh one of their comedy shows, one of the shows in London. >> Uh I was in a church. I think it was at um near Hibberin Islington station and

01:58:41

the love >> what they have for the world is so inspiring. >> It's so infectious really. >> It's so infectious and like the kindness that's seeping through all the words and also how they're very political and activism but it's in a loving way. It's it's it's being >> shar also. Yeah. And it's very it's very >> about it. >> Yeah. And it's very warm. So I think it's a very good modeling in how to be authentic, you know. So I find it Yeah. Yeah. It's

01:59:14

a funny joke. It's like Yeah. If you're coming out, it's more the the non-queer, you know, like I'm coming out as as sis sis heterosexual, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I'd gone to a show also here in India. They had come uh to Goa a few years back and I think this was one of the jokes that was on stage. So it really stuck with me. Uh but yeah, I love it. It's beautiful. everything. I I what I love the most about their work, of course, from the ideology and

01:59:49

everything you said, but I love the lightness of it because so much of queerness has been just tragedy and fight and politics that there really are very few spaces that allow you just celebrating and rejoicing your existence. And that lightness really seeps through for me with their work which I love about it. >> Yeah. >> And and and the lightness makes it >> Yeah. And the the lightness makes sure that it connects with people. It's not difficult. You don't need to be a

02:00:28

scholar. You need to be studying political studies or human rights. Like they bring it in a way that it's accessible for everyone. So they're meeting people where they are with the love and kindness. And there's a lot of education in the jokes as well. a comment show. Yeah. Amazing. >> Fully agree. >> So very >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh and then to go further in on something you said around um how there are so many gifts that for example a person with autism is born with that we

02:01:00

actually as neurotypicals don't have. We as in me because I so far I guess I do have the label of neurotypical in my mind for myself. Um >> you mean neurotypical neurotypical. >> I love that. Um yeah I'll take the difficult. I like it better than typical for sure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um so I was actually reading a research that a friend shared with me recently where there are studies that have gone into this and the doctor who the neuro uh surgeon or scientist I'm not sure who

02:01:46

was studying it uh was actually penalized by the medical board and lost her license was called crazy and not allowed to practice until she had some psychosis tests before they like cleared her for practicing again. because she was indulging in a study where she could um bring around this information of how so many autistic people actually have this almost what we would call in general language say six sense how they're able to and they did really simple interesting tests where uh a person was

02:02:32

looking at a number and their child who they're emotionally close to, their child was able to tell what number they're thinking in their mind without having looked at the number. Um, thoughts that they could sense before they were spoken. And all of these had emotional connects there also which is what made it so interesting that as an autistic person um I'm emotionally connected to this being and so I am able to sense and read their thoughts which to me honestly when I was reading it and watching the videos around it I

02:03:10

had goosebumps because I don't disbelieve any of this. I I was fully like this seems like the most obvious understanding of human nature. Um but that's because I believe in magic in the world and I believe in um the joy and connection that emotional closeness and bonds through lineage and all can bring up. But it's crazy that the medical association literally took away her license for even researching this and putting out results. >> Yeah, that's that's so fascinating. I

02:03:50

mean, please send it through. I find it very interesting because um like what I've learned is that people you have obviously very broad spect spectrum of of autism is that what I've learned is there's a lot of connection. That's also why, for example, children that are and adults that are nonverbal, they connect very well with communicating with animals because that's also like a means of connection with what I don't have access to. So what I see is like we're human beings

02:04:21

and we have like um capabilities and maybe within this world how we need to operate in capitalism they cannot join that process because there's a requirement for that but they have a very big database of knowledge or things they can tap into what we as neurotypicals don't have access to. So for me it's more like they have access to something where we don't have access to and I find that something that we can learn from oh yeah they teach me how to be more connected with nature they teach

02:04:56

me how to be more connected with animals or how we are connected with each other you know like there's so much in there you know and I think was it in Maui or was it in um the cre from their one of the tribes uh of the first nation people of Turtle Island is that people with ADHD are considered as people that like in the west we said oh their their minds are wandering off but then in different cultures is they have interest in many things so it's more about where you put the emphasis on so the because their

02:05:36

their head goes everywhere because they're interested in so many things and they're connected to very interesting things so it's about framing in the end you know like if interested in a lot of things means that yeah maybe you cannot do certain kind of tasks in your computer job or you know you see behind the laptop but being connected with so many things around you and your and being engaged with your environment is for me actually a very beautiful thing you know so those are the things that we

02:06:03

can learn from people that are not neurotypical so that's what excites me is because instead of thinking limitation is like what can we learn from them what can I learn about myself that I have been stopping myself from because want to fit in the neurotypical neuro difficult um category you know like it's so limiting you know so yeah doing doing the research and working closely has been so eyeopening and I'm also very grateful for them for that they let me into their lives that they let me into

02:06:36

their experience of not fitting in um and that I would like to give voice to them and how I can improve and for them to because I feel like they are actually they need the breath work to work with the nervous system. It was just not available to them, you know. So I feel like there's a lot for all as practitioners to dive into. It is a scary thing because it's we're not custom in in listening or tapping into people that have different nervous system like that's not taught to us. We

02:07:09

need to think about productivity. need to be we need to think about performing between 9 to5. Like we are programs that for us to be open and and show care for people who are are wired in a different way, maybe in a more beautiful way than us. Like we we just don't have the capacity to do it, you know? So that's for me. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to be lazy. I'm going to try to learn something from it. So I'm enjoying a lot being in the second year of training. It's very difficult, but I

02:07:40

enjoy it a lot. >> I can really really tell very honestly. >> Yeah, it's really evident on you. I I just want to acknowledge how much I am enjoying this conversation and how uh I feel very similar to how I was feeling after my summer singing sessions that it's been over 2 hours, but I feel very very activated and energized right now. >> Yeah. like usually created. >> Yeah. >> Which is usually almost an, you know, after you have sex with somebody for the first time, the next day and you get no

02:08:17

sleep, but the next day you just have all this energy and you don't know where it came from. That's kind of what's happening right now. >> I love to hear that I was able to create this container for you that you feel like this, you know? I think that's that's incredible, you know, like I think it's very special for us to create this space where there is like no time. Time doesn't exist and it's just people that are connected and want to learn more from each other and experiencing

02:08:45

like the greatness of life and what other people have to offer. Like I think it's I think it's great. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it's like 9:30 p.m. for me, but look at this energy. It's crazy. Um yeah. So uh I I also want to get into like the other part of your thesis which revolves around the specific texture of city life which >> in my understanding and my belief is um structured to work against integration almost. >> Absolutely. >> The pace of it, the noise of it, the

02:09:24

disconnection from nature, community, the demand for performance, produce, all of that. Um, and what I'm really curious about in this piece is exploring your um, I suppose your you your understanding or your uh, feeling around third spaces and how they're vanishing and how systems are taking away those also. >> Oh, the third space is very interesting, right? Um >> I've read a lot about third spaces recently in the third spaces what I see now coming up are fabricated I find

02:10:09

because the third spaces look like how I was raised in my culture in Indonesian how people gather together and are connected through food or through festivities or through ceremony that third space was like a very normal thing and now you have a lot third spaces that has have been um created and some and most of the time also financed by brands because that's like we're going to create community and I'm like uh creating community and creating events and thace is very different than how we

02:10:46

operate in daily life as in how we are supporting each other in community. It's like when we are sick, who's going to help us with, I don't know, food or if someone has like a hard time financially, how we're going to shop in the community. Like that's a very different thing. Um I understand why it's needed to have third spaces especially after what they've experienced in uh the pandemic globally that we're very isolated and we're need for those space. But I feel like

02:11:24

the I think it's a little bit too fabricated that we forget the essence of it on how we actually need to create true third community spaces. Um, I was just wondering like what's what your question exactly was about was my opinion about third space or how I see third spaces or if I have a critical lens on their spaces because I have >> no good on you for catching that cuz my question is a little like just uh exploratory and not so specific. Um yeah, I feel like I had opinions on it

02:12:01

and then I was just like wait let me hear Ambar's you know opinions on it. Um yeah, I I just feel that the thing I wanted to discuss was how capitalism has taken over those spaces and turned them into paid spaces. Whereas third spaces were just supposed to be the path I'm walking to work on or the park I'm hanging out at in the middle of my colony. Um and now those have also become paid structures or like you said structures that are being funded by um organizations, companies, not even

02:12:47

organization, companies to >> promote their brands perhaps. Um, so I I suppose maybe we could get into what the impact of that is showing up as since you said you are working with people who are in the bustle of the city. I would imagine just like for them stepping off the mat and straight onto the tube in London. Um, I'm sure there's some dissonance there and there's a whiplash between those two worlds. And I feel like that's where a third space used to be helpful, you know. Um,

02:13:27

so like h how how have you observed perhaps this experience in your clients and students? Yes, it is a very interesting thing because I was like with with brands commodifying like the whole third space community and how I see community in places for healing and how we can take it beyond the metals like what are the things that make it difficult for people to integrate. I feel like what was emerging was um accountability and taking responsibility. I think those are the two hardest things for people to bring

02:14:05

into their integration is you don't do you really have people in the community that can be your accountability friend when you're in the process of integration right so I feel that that's lacking within community because that's actually quite a big and imitate intimate thing for yourself to be accountable and also to call people out or call people in you know within the process of integration so I feel like Um taking responsibility for your own process and experience and um yeah taking accountability are very

02:14:43

big things but they those things can be achieved if we learn more about reclaiming our power and getting more agency. it will be easier for us to model how does accountability look like within a space of um growth within a community because those are not things that uh a space that is commodified or where you are earning from money. It's like if you're in those places like nobody's talking about responsibility and accountability, you know, and those are actually the best foundations for communities to thrive

02:15:23

because it gives people power. You can engage with each other. You can grow. So I feel like maybe there are more things that are missing with the space but I feel like accountability, responsibility, being okay with making mistakes, not having things right at the same time. If those things were more debatable and experimented the model within those spaces, then we can talk about community. I feel like or or or else it's just like a strip thing that we call community but it's actually not it

02:15:55

because we're kind of tiptoeing around taking responsibility for ourself or maybe calling other people in as in like giving criticism or feedback. Those are the things people are very uncomfortable with. So I feel like those might be the things that are missing within those spaces people call community. But I was just wondering like what your thoughts are because you were also very critical when it comes to Yeah. What do you think about those spaces? Like I I feel that there's alignment in in between the two

02:16:23

of us. But I was I was wondering what what came up for you. >> Yeah. I think I'm critical of the way they are being taken over right now, not their existence. Their existence felt in fact very inherent and natural. Um but when you think about it that existence also I mean in my mind what they were meant to be was that you go to work and then you um come home and there are spaces between that that you also get to exist where you're not playing a role where you're not um yeah that you're not

02:17:03

playing a role because at home there are responsibilities at work there are responsibilities But also, yeah, while I'm speaking, I'm also recognizing that that that space exists because a capitalist structure exists because you go to work and you come home. So, >> it's like you're going to Yeah. You're going to make that up because we need to soften the capitalistic thing. Yeah. I think it's good to have this conversation. It's like what's the third space? Because then the third space

02:17:31

within the capitalistic system is a space where people can become more themselves and can lean into community whereas that's actually it should be like a normal thing for us to do like we don't need that >> it should be like a default thing you know so that's why I was what I mentioned before is like there's space within how I was raised in my culture and also how you were raised in your cultures like it's just part of the family is the neighbors is when we're going to be together. We eat together.

02:18:01

Maybe there's like a season of fruits and we're going to eat the fruits together or there's like a ceremon like you know like it's a very different third space than oh we need a place where we are not performing >> but actually it's also capitalized you know like you know like it's >> it's like they try to bring a concept in that space where is you know >> yeah while I'm yeah while I said it I realized that third space also So just automatically implies that there's a

02:18:33

first space and a second space and then it's again the same thing. It's not a binary but in a sense yes non binary because it's not just two but it is a whatever a third three thing combination is called because you know there are only supposed to be two places and now you have a third one here you go but I suppose in its own way uh with the fact that this is the reality um for majority of the world and population I suppose then in that sense this space that we're trying to talk

02:19:08

about does have its own value as well. Um, and then to also go ahead and commercialize that feels a bit uh what is that word? Evil. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose that's what I feel about it. >> I was like what is there like a right word? I think but a lot of thing within the capitalistic system is I now I'm questioning everything you know like everything that's fabricated to get the sense of real community you know like within this system sports entertainment is like a very big thing to bring people together but it's

02:19:52

also not really bringing people together it brings people together when it grow I mean it's very good for the economy but it's very different than ceremon colonial spaces that are from indigenous cultures, you know, like this. I know I'm going to question so many things. So, also what you've mentioned about the third space, but is it a third space because your work is your first space or that's your house is your second space? Like, you know, like it's >> I mean, you went really far with yes,

02:20:19

home is first, work is second. But you're you're actually right. People do spend more hours at work than they spend at home. So, actually work is first. >> Yeah. you know the way around and then we try to give it a position within the we're over complicating so many things because we wanted to make it fit in the in in in the in in the in the structure and yeah it's an interesting I'm I'm very I'm looking forward how those spaces are going to um evolve because I remember 20 years ago

02:20:59

uh a lot of these third spaces is were popping up. It was a running club or a reading book or re uh book club or you know where people are communing together because they have uh things in common. >> Yeah. >> Things in common, common interests. And now I'm just actually curious how that's going to look like because people are getting more curious in the colonizing things. So like how would that look like, you know? That would be like the next thing I'm I'm curious about because

02:21:29

I feel like we decolonized. We don't we don't need brands to do that, you know, like it's can we uphold, >> you know, it's like it's like communal first aid, you know, like it's about responsibility and accountability. We don't have a brand or a leader like leading the initiative. We need to do it as a collective. Like that's that's a scary that's that's what the responsibility and accountability comes in is that who's going to carry it you know like

02:21:57

it's going to be all the individuals it's not going to be one leading and then people just show up third space no it's like you know like there's so many yeah so many things that um >> yeah I'm also realizing while we were talking that technically if if if workspaces were decolonized then there would be no need for a specific third space to do that function, but because they're like, "Okay, here you stick on these rules and live under us, so go have a space that allows you to just be

02:22:33

um >> yourself." Yes. >> Which is a little messed up. Quite messed up. >> It is. It is messed up. Oh, I find it so interesting to uh I was like, "Oh my god, maybe I could like have my thesis about depth, you know, like >> no." Yeah, >> I need to keep on focusing. No, that's another thing. But I find it's very interesting because >> how you asked me is also we're trying to make it make sense within the construct that's existing, right? But and then and

02:23:06

then it's like, oh yeah, but actually, you know, >> yeah, you like you fully caught on to that. There was actually no question there. It was just like an annoyance. >> Yeah, it's actually quite right. It doesn't make sense to have it. Yeah, >> I just wanted to like bring it up and share the annoyance and discuss the topic, but there was no real question. Um, so yeah, that was >> the the annoyance is shared. So we're connect on that one like the the annoyance is shared and

02:23:39

>> it's it's very interesting because a lot of people are attracted like it's a very successful concept because we have an underlying need for that. We just didn't find the words to be connect with other people. So it's like oh you like baking or you like running or cycling there we're going to call it XY Z and create a space for it. uh because there is a need of us and that's also people remembering that there is a need for us to be connected. We just didn't

02:24:08

find the right word. We think oh maybe I need to go to a cycling club and a third space where I can come there get my cup of coffee and then I'm going to hang out with other and I'm going to talk about my bike you know but um yeah because there's a need for connection people just don't know that that's how remembrance works. Uh interesting. >> I can talk about this for hours. >> Yeah. I also just found it a little relevant because we were talking about city life and yeah, we're not involved

02:24:37

there and then this is a huge part of city life at the moment. It is the only structure where at the moment people do get to stop performing. So yeah, maybe there's some uh you know reflection on it later and it can just be something that we talked about that we both just land up thoughts on and don't know where we're going with it. I am actually questioning now like of those spaces that you've mentioned like you say it's a place where people are not performing >> but I'm like it's actually still very

02:25:14

performant space >> in a sense I suppose in capitalist structure it is hard for performance to not exist because if we're creating a space for come in and don't perform you're performing than not performing in a sense right >> exactly yeah >> cuz if you're naming it that then that that work is done before you enter it. But at large I also feel like the core idea of a third space isn't so much of having a common interest. It's more um in fact welcoming people from different

02:25:51

cultural backgrounds, socioeconomic backgrounds. Um the draw, the primary draw is still interacting with others and building relationships. Uh but the idea is that it's within walking distance. It's promoting ease of use. It's um a space you can enter without invitation, not spend money on that sort of structure. >> So >> yeah, that is where the not performing any roles was coming from. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I still feel like there's so much to explore like there's I think

02:26:26

people are also figuring out and then maybe they wake up and they it's it's still very an experimental place. Um I do see more spaces especially where I where I am living in uh East London, Northeast London is there are more a lot of those spaces that are not funded by brands. So I find it actually quite interesting to see how that goes. We have community gardens where people are volunteering uh and everybody takes responsibility and accountability how to take care of the garden. Obviously there is someone

02:27:04

who is u leading but it's like a joint thing. So there are spaces like you know third spaces but it's very interesting to see that there are commercialized spaces and not commercialized spaces and I feel like the the not commercialized spaces there's a lot of place for experimenting people are probably reinventing the wheel because in a lot of communities uh in other continents people are dependent on those places. You know, if you don't have a babysitter, then you have like your children can hang out

02:27:43

there before you're done with work. You know, like those are the places where you have you call the other people your aunties, but they're not your real aunties and they take care of the children. Those are the spaces where you can just play around in between school and being home. Um it's a very interesting to see that people are trying to find the ways in creating those spaces whereas in other cultures it's more common to have those those spaces. >> Yeah. >> Um and I feel like people should

02:28:12

experiment. Yeah. Even if it's reinventing the wheel, people need to find ways what's suitable to them and what's suitable in the location and the city or people live in. Um and it's a very human thing for people to explore themselves, make mistakes, see what's worked, see what's not what's not working, what does collaboration mean, what does conflict mean, what does repair mean in the situations, you know, like those are still very important things for people to explore. So even though I'm critical

02:28:45

about the the com the the commercial thing, I mean >> yeah, >> the the reality of it itself is a very beautiful thing. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And you're completely correct that a lot of these cities have not been built with uh the bodies and histories of people of color with them in mind. Uh so they look very different for from how a city would look if it had occupants with culture, how it should look. >> So definitely that is showing up in this conversation for us a lot. I imagine

02:29:29

that's kind of the core of what is showing up by the creation of this term now that needs another space created for things that should have just been inherent >> in the architecture of a city. >> Exactly. And not to be created but it's fascinating that it's being create look there is a need still you know and then even if it's manufactured it doesn't matter because it's still a need of people like we >> we still need it. It just looks different. Um, yeah. Interesting. Even

02:30:02

though it was not a question, was very I appreciate it for you bringing that in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for indulging. Honestly, we were scheduled to have this um chat like almost a month ago, I think. >> Yes. And I was watching a real on Instagram and I just heard some of these really interesting viewpoints around this and I was like, "Ooh, this seems like something so fun to talk to Amber about." And now I've lost all context of what was it so interesting about that

02:30:36

conversation that I wanted to bring in, but I didn't want to discuss u the idea of them anyway. So I suppose we did that and so thank you for indulging in that. >> You're welcome. >> Yeah. Um I would love to move into um I suppose understanding what integration looks like for you, the lived reality of it. What does it mean to you? Oh, I went like on such a big journey for integration. Um the difficult part for me especially living in city like integration is a process and it can go

02:31:21

in many ways and for example if I come out of a breath work session new knowledge or things you remember are emerging and it's very difficult the challenge is How are we trying to make sense of something that was emerging where you don't have the words for and how you are going to put it into daily life. Um that's the most difficult thing because we are also in this case talking about different languages because sometimes words cannot encompass the experience what you've experienced.

02:32:04

is like something felt, something you have seen, maybe it has been communicated to you, but you didn't find an understanding that resonates with certain kind of wisdom that's emerging. Um, so what I hear from a lot of people is that they try to make sense out of it. Okay. Yeah. Well, so we're done with the session. Okay. I've learned that what how we're going to integrate like it doesn't work like that. It takes time to understand. Sometimes she need hours, days, um maybe even months or years to

02:32:41

understand how to integrate. But there are so many ways to to integrate, right? There there's so many practices especially within um uh the psychotherapy what what I am what I'm doing right now integration can be in drawing writing journaling even movement can be dancing it can be so many different things to channel the energy what you've got after a session and it needs to go it needs to go through your system and then it will then it's a matter of time to be like okay this is what I've

02:33:20

learned and this is the action I'm taking into enriching my life or adjust my behaviors or introduce some a part of me that was unknown um in my daily life it can be something that you have hidden a part of yourself. It can also be a part that you've never met before and you would like to integrate. So I think the most difficult thing is because we try to make sense with words and we go into the city and we're going to continue with daily life, it just gets lost. Um, so I think like how integration looks for me right

02:34:12

now is having resources as people to lean onto. So we're we're talking about community again, right? For someone that can hold you in that experience even though you cannot make sense of it yet. That's something what I struggled with a long time ago when before I got into breath work. Um I went to an Iawaska retreat was my first retreat and when you're taking the sacred medicine a lot of portals at the same time go open. It's it's not as subtle as breath work. It's like like

02:34:48

universe is open. It's like what do I need to do with this amount of information. So it took me when I got back to the city. It took me five to six weeks before I could be around people because it was so overwhelming. I had no idea how to integrate. Right. So I feel the important thing of integration is finding people that can hold you in the experience even if you cannot make sense of it yet. Um and would drawing and journaling journaling would enough? No, I don't feel that's enough. It's it's one of the

02:35:24

ways how you can capture energy that's going through your system and you want to express it. But there are so many different things you need to involve the body, the mind, feelings, how I connect to myself and how I connect to other people, how I connect with nature. So there is a very big uh facet of things and container in how to uh make integration meaningful for someone who has experienced something. And that process can be actually longer than the experience which you had. That's what people forget a lot is that

02:36:04

the integration can go on and on also because you get a better understanding what things mean because you're growing as a person. Your vocabulary enriches your life experience enriches and then you're like oh now I understand what's was emerging. You know that it takes a little bit of time. So I feel like that's why I find integration very important is because a lot of times integration is like a bit left out and I'm like oh but actually the gem and the beauty is in the integration because

02:36:35

with a ceremony or a breath work session or any other experience is just opening a door and then like stuff comes out like you know and it's okay what are you going to do? How are you going to reorganize? That's the that's the big work that needs to needs to happen. Um, so that's why I find integration important because it gives me it allows me to look at human beings and and people I work with to themselves that we are very we're very big and complex and we have so many different parts that need to be involved

02:37:10

and engaged within integration. It's the body, it's the mind, it's the emotions, it is our history, it's what's coming after us. like there's we're so complex you know so I feel like integration needs to tap in on those different parts of us as a human being uh that makes it complex as yeah yeah in city life it's difficult and also if you don't have access to nature or parks it's very difficult to run energy through do something with it it's it's difficult

02:37:44

>> yeah I hear you um but at least what I'm getting from this also is that a lot of small acts add up to that integration in a longer period of time. Something I have seen a lot of people fear after they hear the word is this idea around that oh I'm going to need a whole life overhaul for this uh so I'm just not going to get into the practice but many times it's just a lot of small things adding up like maybe the journaling alone does not do it but if you're journaling consistently while

02:38:21

you're also trying to find people who can support you while also you find a pub to go lay down in a lot of that added up becomes these sort of small rituals that you um allow your body and life to experience. >> Absolutely. And it doesn't need to be very big, you know, it's like, oh, I'm going to integrate now. I'm going to move to Costa Rica or I get like a fan and then like, you know, like, oh, we can do small things. Connection with a neighbor or connection with something that's close, what's more

02:38:52

um within our reach. And I feel like that's also something that's very challenging for people. It's like I had so many big insights. It's like so big. So the integration needs to be so big. Like what are you going to do? You're going to change your entire life from many denas because of one experience. No, you need to be very kind with yourself and just take small things in um changing the way you think, the the way you behave, the way you like just small things of action and then on a longer

02:39:30

like period of time you will you'll bear fruit of it, you know. Um yeah, so there's a lot of patience. All those small actions and being consistent with it will will change how you look at life. And then at one point it goes from like oh it's just like an idea you know uh it's an intention and then it goes into an action and then your behavior changes and then then it becomes like a habit and it's like a practice and then it's like oh that's who you are you know so like it's

02:40:11

there's a lot of um action and willingness for the whole process to become something that will help you in in the rest of your life. So yeah, integration is hard >> but also in smaller ways very easy in a sense. >> Very it's very easy. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I hear you. I hear you. I didn't do at all um >> like reduce the weight of not the weight but the the just the how crucial it is in a process but in fact I was trying to reduce the weight in a sense because yes it's

02:40:50

crucial but also it's not this heavy thing that cannot be done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I think more people should see it that way that it's like yeah it is it is if you look if you zoom out it's like oh my god like uh life changing yeah that's true but small steps baby step what's what's within your capacity that's also a big thing that we need to understand like what is your capacity in taking all these changes on start small have patience because everything will add up at one point so

02:41:25

that's why I find having a support network of people very important because they can hold you in that whilst you are trying to navigate new things, right? Like even though you don't have the words for it, it's it's just very good to have like-minded people, family members, friends, what have you, that can support you whilst you go through it. >> Yeah. >> Until you kind of understand what um the new insight is trying to say to you. It's actually so crazy to me because so

02:41:52

much of what I listened to in a lot of the wellness spaces um in whatever yoga classes and even online when you see all of this. So many of the quotes just talk about um yes you can lean here, you can lean there, but the actual work only happens when you sit by yourself and you know um do the work solo and so much of that. But for me also the biggest thing for me always is leaning on people. Even when yesterday I got the news about like having to vacate my house. >> Mhm. >> The first thing I did was think of which

02:42:39

friend I need to speak to right now. And I've actually been shamed for it a little bit uh through my life, but like oh um why like you don't need to share everything with a person. Why is codependency and co this why is it so important for you? And I've just been like I mean honestly if it works for me it works for me. What is what is the big deal here? If I'm identifying that this helps me why should I not use it like what >> absolutely reason. >> Yeah. And also like the whole indiv

02:43:18

individualism part you're mentioning like that's a white supremacy characteristic and it's actually very normal for you normal like I think healthy for you to connect with someone to hold like difficult news or a process within your life right so yeah what you said before about what people say in the in those healing spaces that it is something which you need to do solo like no we're we are interconnected with each there. This is in no way we can do this solo and there's also no way for us to

02:43:54

get to a place and then we are ready to interact in the world because now we're like the 2.0 of our version like it doesn't work like that. I think if we embrace the messiness, we need to model and have relationships with each other and then we kind of see if it work working out or not. But no, I think I think that's a very false thing to say. It's like it's a solo thing for us to do. It's did did it help? No, I don't think we should do things solo. are we are relational beings and we operate in

02:44:27

relationship and that's something what where we need to go back to because how we're living right now is so separate from each other that's also why our mental health is not good why our physical health is not good is because we have removed ourselves from connection when we need that so with integration we need connection um if you're leaving a Because I mean reflection you can do it by yourself but I think when it comes to integrating it's relational. It's either me relationship with nature relationship

02:45:03

with myself or relationship with other people like it's always connected because we are part of something big something collective we are just like one piece of the big thing. And that's also why we why I feel like when it comes to integration and and growing, it needs to be in relation with us with everything that we're a part of. So nah. >> Yeah. If somebody would say that, I will not come to the class again, >> you know. >> Doesn't doesn't sit right. >> Yeah. I was quite I was a lot younger

02:45:41

when all of these things were being said. Um, and I didn't really have and I genuinely did feel like I actually worked on this part of myself and went like, "Okay, maybe I should stop calling my friends so much all the time." And it was turned into, "Oh, you're too needy." It was turned into so many things, honestly. But that dialogue that goes around of like the real work only happens when you sit alone with yourself. It's a very common phrase thrown around. But um I'm yeah I'm happy

02:46:13

with how I've taken it and I'm I'm even more happy and I really appreciate the reaffirmation that this conversation is bringing for me right now. >> Thank you for that. >> Yeah, you're welcome. Like it does the work starts with yourself obviously but like what we we we mentioned before is like if you would like to address something in a social body it starts with us like so in the end it's still interconnected you know even if it starts with ourselves we should do that

02:46:40

but then bring it in yeah bring it alive with other people in relation that's where the works begin but it's also something what has not been thought to us when we're growing up it's not something we are taught at school or maybe by our parents. I feel like the spaces that we are creating with our breath work is that hopefully those will be the space that we can share with people how it looks like, how to integrate um together. And it doesn't need to be perfect. It's going to be messy. We're

02:47:12

going to be misaligned. We're going to be in conflict. But I feel that there's a very big opportunity for us to um create these spaces where people can integrate together and it can be messy and that you you don't need to do it by yourself. It doesn't that that that will hopefully that will remove also a lot of pressure in carrying all the big stuff by yourself. you know, you can have it, you share it with people, you have less less weight. So, I think that's important. But thank you for

02:47:49

throwing it into the space. >> Yeah. Um, and as we're coming a little closer to our closing, uh, one thing that I >> have very naturally been reflecting on in the past two days, um, was the stuff that I spoke to you about just before we started of how there are some challenges that have come up for me, um, in the last 24 hours and they sort of feel like difficulties at this moment. Um, even though there's belief that they they will change. Um, yet what it's really done for me is made

02:48:33

me reflect on how my relationship with change and difficulty has changed over time. Um, especially in this last year since I've been working in this space and trying to lean into the tools I have for myself. So I would also love to hear from you on um what what what does that version of you look like? You did take me through how uh you're someone for whom transformation has become second nature over time and I love that so much. I love hearing that so much. Um but it is of course my understanding that it wasn't always like

02:49:19

that. So, I'm curious for you to take us maybe back to an earlier version of yourself before you had so much trust in that process of transformation. Yeah. Oh, that's Yeah. How did that process go? It was a long process. Maybe over 15 years or something. Um I think for me to be able to take more risk in facing transformation became like more clear and confident for me as soon as I knew how to have my resources. Resources is support or also how I can support myself. Um and also instead of trusting other

02:50:15

people, trust myself more as in if something happens and it doesn't turn out very well that I can take care of myself within a certain kind of situation. And it became second nature because I got less daunted in solving life problems because things are challenging because we've never experienced a situation like that in our lives. It's like, oh, for example, sucks. You you have this this news that lasts 24 hours and it makes you a little bit nervous because you're like, I don't know how to solve

02:50:55

it. Is it because you don't know how to solve it or is it more about you're not you don't you don't know how it's going to look like? That's the same with transformation is like there is this mystery but you also need to know that if you can take care of yourself you can hold that uncertainty right and and you get more skill because you're going to stay more high risk it's like okay if that's not working out I have experience in the past that I can hold it or I find another solution or

02:51:29

I'm going to find help or I'm not or I'm not going to do this by myself anymore I two friends that experienced something like that before. So, I'm going to call them. So, it's about being creative in solving uh the challenges what you have, but also resting with the idea because of the newness. It makes you nervous. It's not that you cannot solve it. You just don't know it's going to look like and the the uncertainty stays there. It's the same with transformation, you

02:52:00

know, like people have are scared to change. Like why are you scared? You can always go back to your old version if you want. There's nothing scary about that, right? So uh you can you can solve all the things like how you can do it how you solve all the other things in your past but when it comes to future it's like oh yeah well I just don't know how it look like but I will just wing it like how you winged life. So that's how I have managed to feel safe, grounded and trust myself

02:52:31

when it comes to making transformation my second nature is master it. You know that oh well didn't turn out well better luck next time. Like that's in any type of situation uh that that's the case. um and how much more mistakes I've made and know how to solve it in the end also gives me a sense of agency in you know I I can solve it again. So I feel like if we have more courage in that in the uncertainty and also more trust in the ability what we already have that we have enough experience to

02:53:21

um go headirst into things. So that works the same with with with transformation and always there's always it sounds so corny but in every life's challenges you have there is always a lesson what you can learn from that will help you in transforming and it is actually true because a situation is going to ask you and it's going to challenge you to become a new person that can handle that situation. So you need to need to change anyway. So the transformation is actually pushing you. was like it's time

02:53:57

and you're like I don't feel like it and it's true because the body is not ready for change. That's actually why we feel anxious in moments of transformation is because the bo the nervous system is like this is scary because it doesn't feel right. This kind of change gives anxiety blah blah blah. But then we also have the heart and the mind as in hey buddy I kind of understand why you're queuing me it's going to be dangerous but I feel I got our back because I have life experience and I

02:54:34

trust myself and either way the worst case scenario we will not end up there. So when it comes to transformation, having the mind body connection with your heart is very important. And sometimes one of those things are more loud than the other. But then it's about taking a distance, look at it, and see how you can connect all those different parts again. And then before you know it, transformation has happened. It's embodied. And you're like, "Oh, that's actually not that difficult."

02:55:05

You see? So, so throughout the years I've managed to understand how that works. It's like when you are transforming something is asking you to change uh challenges are being uh served to you very beautiful or very ugly. Most time it's ugly because it's going to show you the urgency why in the emergency like why you need to change it. Um, and then I'm going to be like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's another challenge. I just don't understand what the end is, but I will overcome."

02:55:41

And part of me that is open for leaning into it and making it second nature because it allow allows me to be very creative in finding solutions. So there's a part of myself that's a creator and it likes to do it yourself kind of thing, you know. So then I can allow that part of myself and saying okay we have a challenge it's going to be super hard but there's a part of me umbar in the back seat the creative p the creative part jump to the front it's your turn so you know like that's

02:56:18

always challenging but that's I don't know if it makes sense but that's the process I went through in making difficult moments that teach us a lot of things gives us wisdom is is that process and now I love to take risks I'm like yeah let's go for it like let's do it what is the >> what what is the worst thing that can happen and I'm like nothing >> is it a life and death situation no the worst things can happen is maybe economical like oh you will lose more

02:56:54

money you gain more money or or you gain more time or you lose more time or if it's conflict you can um harm people or you can have conflict and then then but in in those case I'm like I can repair if I'm going to piss people off within this process I'm like I don't mind I can be authentic I I will I will will piss people off but I know how to repair I I know to have a diff a difficult conversation with people and then we can be friendship races can be elevated because of this experiences So I think if we

02:57:31

have the trust in repairing in being creative in solutions I think we can hold difficult things and then at one point be like oh my god that had to emerge a new part of yourself. So that's why I'm big on transformation like super big. >> Thank you for sharing all of that. That made so much sense. Please don't even question it for a second. >> Yeah. And I also love that what I heard was that there were skills uh like creativity and problem solving and um relational repair that actually are

02:58:15

things that you basically learned, taught yourself and started using. And that's what changed an earlier version of you um to a version that takes risks and trusts in transformation which is absolutely beautiful that those tools actually are at our disposal. They are there for us as >> social human beings to harness and it's just our choice if we harness them or not. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Absolutely. So like within within your Yeah. I maybe it's helpful for you in your new

02:58:54

chapter, you know, like maybe maybe there's something in there that maybe you can reflect on, you know, that gives you more like >> you can do this s you know. >> Oh yeah. Problem solving uh is high up on things of interest to me. It's like >> Yeah. And there's there's also what I really love. There's um something childlike in it. There's a lot of play. >> Yeah. And I'm like just unleash that part of yourself like in this daunting period like okay let's

02:59:31

let Mish play you know like it can be messy like >> yeah sometimes I almost feel like uncertainty yes makes me wobbly but then wobbly is almost like I'm giddy and then giddiness almost becomes this like okay well what is life trying to do for me right Now what is happening >> now? I guess I have to pivot and find another way through this >> and well I don't have control of it because we don't have control of a lot of situations at times. >> Absolutely not. Yeah.

03:00:08

>> But they have there's obviously a way through it you know cuz there >> absolutely there is a way through it but also I think the beauty of it is like maybe we can clear the way so the way will be more visible. It's like if there's resistance like okay >> yeah there's some obstacles maybe we should remove it and then >> things will solve itself or things will form the right place right time you know it's also removing obstacles or things that are unnecessary

03:00:39

>> that's that's also what I find beautiful about when it comes to healing like we're never healed with healing we're just like cleaning the space so other thing so we have more space for other things to emerge for for us to solve the different problems or more complicated problems or for things to emerge that are good qualities of ours because we never had the space to do because we're so busy with our traumas into processing it on our hard drive that all good stuff that

03:01:10

also part of us don't have time to emerge like it's also cleaning process for me you know so yeah yeah I like challenges that oh the universe is throwing something at me and I'm like it's because the universe know that I can handle this. What what does it have? What what what is what is it trying to offer me? >> You know, like okay, if I looked at it what I had planned and that's totally fine because >> and also what you have had planned is doesn't exist either, you know, like you

03:01:42

just >> Yeah. Because it was based off of what you knew and sometimes you don't know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's it's also like oh it's actually very very simple but also not simple. It's like the hardest thing ever. >> Yeah. This is really the perfect kind of conversation for me to have today. So it's great. Yeah. I love it. >> That's good to hear. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um before we close on the episode, I actually just wanted to open some space

03:02:11

up for you right now to We've already talked about the thesis, >> but I know it's a really a live part of your life right now. Uh and I think there are a lot of people listening in who are going to want to be part of it. So maybe taking a moment here to give you space to tell us who you're looking to work with, how can people get involved, where can they reach out to you, that sort of thing. Yeah. So everybody can get in touch me through my website www.arrusti.net. I'm also on Instagram, so you can follow

03:02:47

me at rustri. And I am working with individuals and working with groups. and I have a trajectory starting after the summer. Um, and I'm going to work with no expensive groups. So, if you have ADHD, autism, dyslexia, even if you have anxiety and disorder and you feel like giving breath work a go within a group of people uh to enhance your practice, please reach out to me. I will be very very happy to guide you. Uh I do it in person in London and I can also do it online. So uh yeah stay in touch and hopefully I

03:03:29

can I can meet more people and change how uh breath work is going to be offered and made it more accessible for everyone. >> Yeah, thank you for that. And equally if anything in today's conversation has made you curious about working with Amber directly whether through sound healing or breath work um or any of the other modalities she spoke about because there's so much going on. Uh please do follow the links in our show notes. This is exactly the kind of practitioner I truly believe the world needs a lot more

03:04:07

of. Um thank you so much Amber. Honestly, it's almost a moment of me not wanting to end this conversation. >> Like, no. >> Yeah. But it's also 10:30 p.m. for me now, so I'm just like, is my body tired? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you so much for holding this incredible space and for inviting me to have a conversation with you. It was very hearing. It was there are a lot of things I'm like going to think about. So I feel like there's also a lot of integration

03:04:44

after this one because I feel like a lot of passion on certain topics and also hearing your perspective and your experiences has a lot of value to me. So thank you so much S for this. I loved it >> and uh I can't wait to uh get in touch with you another time. >> Yeah. And it might sound corny, but I feel exactly the same feelings you just described. The value of stories for me is really huge. So I love listening to so much of what you spoke about. And um yeah, it is just so much resonance. Even the parts

03:05:20

that there weren't really so many parts that weren't resonant. While I was just going to say this, I realized because I truly even the things I didn't say it on, I just didn't say it because it would sound silly to just keep saying how much I resonate with each of it. Um, oh, there is one thing I actually wanted to mention. Uh >> there is a ritual that I do at the end of each practice which I don't which I've usually not been doing with like the guest present which is that I record a

03:05:53

poem um a piece of poetry that resonates with the theme that we've kind of covered or the things we've ended up talking about. However, I have been questioning for myself over this time period over these 8 months if um if I feel like you know moving into a new ritual instead of that. And uh that new ritual in my mind had been cuz when I was thinking of it, oh what else do I enjoy because it is sort of an integration for me at the end of the conversation. um that new ritual for me. Some of the

03:06:31

ideas that came up, one of them was, okay, I feel like I want to name at the end of every episode one word or one phrase that I might have decolonized for myself through that conversation. And uh today, and I wasn't sure about any of this because I was like, okay, am I ready to let go of the poetry? I love it so much. And am I ready to move into a new one? And I'm still not sure. But the fact that you brought >> I love this process. I love this. >> Yeah. Um Yeah, I thought you would. Um

03:07:05

but then how you brought up, you know, neurotypicality, I love that so much to move into that instead of neurotypical. Um, and I feel like it feels like a great starting point for me to I'm not sure if I'm letting go of the poetry yet, but I do feel like I can anyway start a new ritual along with the last one until I'm ready to let go of the last one. Um, so this part I will do with you. uh that one word that I am decolonizing for myself from this session today is neurotypical which now

03:07:42

for me in my language and dictionary is called neurode difficult. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. I guess that's >> now you have like another ritual. I find the poetry still a very beautiful thing to integrate but this is also very strong because it encompasses so many things like even if it's one word it says so much about the process of neurode divergence versus neurotypical and that we are beyond the binary. Yeah, we are so much and we need to credit the word so much more and we are allowed to be

03:08:23

that so much. We're allowed to be everything. >> Yeah. Thank you so much for giving me the chance to like explore that so organically instead of >> even I really hadn't thought if today would be the day I would do it but then it just happened so sweetly and I love the words so much. >> Yeah. Yeah. And also um thank you for leading into that you know like the readiness of just bring it into the space like I have something new like that's that's beautiful to see it in real time going

03:08:59

through you like I think it's a very it's a pleasure to see that. Thank you so much. You're welcome. All right. So, it seems like I'm not quite ready to let go of the ritual of my sweet, sweet poem at the end of every episode. Um, and well, today I want to offer you something by Maya Angelo. Not that she deserves any sort of introduction uh but to name a few things. She was a poet, a memoirist, a survivor and one of the most luminous voices of the 20th century. She wrote from inside the experience of a woman

03:09:49

who had been broken open by life repeatedly and had chosen each time to rise rather than disappear. She understood transformation not as a tidy arc but as a daily embodied act of defiance and joy. This poem by her is called Still I Rise. I'm going to read just a portion of it and I invite you to receive it not as inspiration but perhaps as recognition. H still I rise. You may write me down in history with your bitter twisted lies. You may trod me in the very dirt, but still like dust I'll rise.

03:10:44

Just like moons and like suns with the certainty of tides. Just like hopes springing high, still I'll rise. Did you want to see me broken? Bowed head and lowered eyes. Shoulders falling down like tear drops, weakened by my soulful cries. You may shoot me with your words. You may cut me with your eyes. You may kill me with your hatefulness. But still, like air I'll rise. Does my sexiness upset you? Does it come as a surprise that I dance like I've got diamonds at the meeting of my thighs?

03:11:31

Out of the hearts of history's shame. I rise up from a past that's rooted in pain. I rise. I'm a black ocean leaping and wide, welling and swelling. I bear in the tide, leaving behind nights of terror and fear. I rise into a daybreak that's wondrously clear. I rise, bringing the gifts that my ancestors gave. I am the dream and the hope of the slave. I rise. I rise. I rise. O Gosh, these poets. Well, what moves me about this poem is that it doesn't ask permission. I I I it doesn't wait until the

03:12:24

conditions are right, until the work is done, until the transformation is complete. It rises now out of the dirt, out of the shame, out of the history. It rises carrying all of it. Not despite the weight but through it. That is exactly what I felt Amber has been showing us today. Integration is not the moment you arrive somewhere clean and resolved. It is the rising again and again one tiny feasible step at a time in the middle of your city in the middle of your ordinary life in the middle of becoming. In the next episode,

03:13:02

we go somewhere new and find a new exploration for ourselves. I can't wait to be in that conversation with you. And in the meantime, if today's episode moved something in you, if something Amber said is still sitting somewhere in your chest, here are a few small things I invite you to do. Subscribe to the Inspire Breath podcast wherever you listen. The season is a whole journey. Each episode builds on the last and you really, really don't want to miss it. Share this episode because someone in your life is standing

03:13:40

in that gap right now between the insight and the integration, between what they felt in that session and what Monday morning looked like. Just send it to a friend. Help them out. And if Amber's work calls to you, whether you want to participate in her research, explore sound healing, or book a breath work session, her details are in the show notes. Please reach out. She is building something that belongs to all of us. Thank you for being here. Thank you for walking this with me yet again. until

03:14:15

next month. Go gently, take up space and remember you are not behind. You are not broken. You are in the middle of becoming and still you rise. Take so much good care of yourself. Till I see you again.