(Episode 8) The space between an exhale and empire

What does it take to look at the world as it actually is - loud, frightened, and moving faster than our nervous systems were built for - and choose to build something anyway? Something rooted. Something that remembers what the body knows.

In this episode, Suks sits down with Hannah Kendaru, founder of Inspire Breathwork and creator of the Decolonizing Breathwork Facilitator Training, for a conversation that moves through the big questions underneath all the work. They explore the characteristics of supremacy culture and how they live in our bodies, the manufactured urgency that keeps us too busy to think critically, what AI is quietly doing to our creativity and confidence, and why the turn toward the ancestral and the somatic feels less like a trend and more like a necessity.

They also go behind the scenes of Inspire Breathwork itself as Hannah shares details of her upcoming course, Breathing Beyond Empire starting September 16th.

Whether you are a student of breathwork, someone feeling the particular exhaustion of this moment, or a practitioner ready to go deeper, come sit with us. 

Hannah Kendaru is the founder of Inspire Breathwork - an experienced Indonesian-English breathwork therapist with a diverse training history. In the last 12 years, she has found the importance of  bodies as sites of wisdom and of activism. Guided by ancestors, teachers, mentors, advanced trauma training and indigenous wisdom she weaves together personal healing and social justice serving for radical change.
She is currently accepting applications for her Breathing Beyond Empire course, beginning September 2026.

Inspire Breathwork exists to train a new generation of facilitators; practitioners who understand that healing cannot be separated from the systems that wounded us. Founded on the principles of freedom, liberation, and decolonial care.

Hannah’s sensory explorations right now:
Book she’s reading: Sexuality Beyond Consent by Avi Sakata-Pulo
Podcast she’s listening: The Emerald by Joshua Shry
Music/Artist she’s exploring: Dua Saleh
Instagram creators she’s loving: @decolonizing.love & @misanharriman

Transcript:

00:00:01

Hello and welcome to a new episode of the inspire breath work podcast. I am your host Silks and the exploration I am sitting with today is not a new one but definitely one that keeps returning with more urgency each time which is what do we do with the world as it actually is right now. Today I am speaking with the cisgendered queer woman who built the container I am growing inside of currently. The founder of inspire breath work, the creator of the facilitator training I am currently in and someone

00:00:42

whose thinking has genuinely changed how I understand my own breath, my own body and my own place in this beautiful little world. Hana Kendaru, welcome to the Inspire Breath work podcast. I feel slightly surreal saying that because you are in so many ways the reason why this podcast exists at all. Um, so thank you for being here and for everything that led to here and welcome in again. >> Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, this is our second time recording together. And uh I remember the first

00:01:23

one was our first episode of this podcast where we weren't doing video yet where um I was genuinely doing the first podcast I had episode I had ever recorded. Um and now we're 7 months in and it's been quite a journey. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I've been really enjoying witnessing the growth and just the process of learning um that you have been going through but also witnessing the other students and the other episodes of this series is has been so nourishing, gentle and harrowing

00:02:06

at times but so insightful and I'm really really grateful that you've stepped into creating this and um and weaving our community together and yeah, so thank you for leaning in and well done. Really well done. >> A thank you. It will always always, you know, um listening to praise from your teacher is always going to be a thing I will strive for. Uh no matter how much of a performative act it sounds like, it doesn't feel like that at all. It feels very like natural for me to want that.

00:02:43

So, I'm going to keep wanting it. So, thank you so much for giving me that. >> Yeah, you're welcome. H. So before we go anywhere, I want to ask you something um that maybe you do get asked, but I have genuinely, you know, been curious about even though we sat in a supervision just last evening for the people listening in right now to know what your life actually looks like right now on an ordinary day. Maybe not the work, not the vision, just the texture of your days. what fs them.

00:03:22

>> So, I've just arrived in the UK in London and this is one of the perks of straddling multiple lineages is spending time in different lands. Normally I live in Indonesia in Bandung, West Java and in the European kind of northern hemisphere summers I come over to the UK. Currently reintegrating back into my family unit here. Um and yeah, I guess trying to find a little bit of ground in London. And there's a lot of movement. It's very kinetic here. And so these last couple of weeks have really

00:04:16

been around reconnecting to comfort foods. Um reconnecting to foods that I can't get in Indonesia. Um enjoying these late evenings because um yeah, in Indonesia we have a 12-hour cycle. Sun up, sun down is at 6:00. Whereas here in the summer seasons, there's a lot of late nights and um and it's still light at night. So last night we spent some time sitting around the fire and chatting and catching up um with different friends and family. Um, on a day-to-day basis, just a little update, my little sister is a very avid

00:05:05

DIYer, and I've been I've been kind of coralled into the the working team of that. And so, we've been doing a lot of DIY and um re rellandscaping the garden. So that's what I've been doing in my in between times of work. Um, and I guess the other pieces that are in between moments are sitting here with the wildness of the nature here. Actually, there's a lot of pigeons and squirrels and foxes and cats and um birds in the parks and ducks and geese. Um many more than um many more than

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Indonesia that I see in the city. So, uh that's something that I've also been really enjoying. Oh, that sounds so full and wholesome. I'm really happy to hear about especially the birds and cats because I know the shared love we all have for animals in that cohort that we share as well. Yeah, that's amazing. And then um how are you honestly? And I ask because I think um there's a particular kind of person who builds the containers for everyone else's healing. And I'm curious how you tend to yourself

00:06:37

inside that inside all of this change. >> Yeah, thank you for asking. How am I? H I think my current state is in constant fluctuation. Um, it is a very stretchy space of both kind of grounded and edgy and it's always a swinging pendulating existence. Um these next few weeks are I'm in preparation mode um to be in space with people physically like next uh this weekend we have our immersion coming up with our second years and then after that there's the breathe festival that I help organize

00:07:30

and so I've been trying to create space and be slow and gentle mental um whilst also being in kind of action um kind of task oriented spaces. So it's I try and swing from kind of deep rest but then deep action and I'm kind of sweep swinging sweeping across those lines. Um and sometimes it works well and sometimes it doesn't. Um, I'm also in anticipation of my cycle as well. Um, and so trying to honor the work that I do, but honoring the cycle that my body is going through. Um, and so

00:08:20

doing this hard work lovingly. Um, and that actually just requires a lot of tea, a lot of ear gray tea, which I call early G. Um, and in the UK, the the biscuit culture is very strong. So, lots of um, chocolate bourbon biscuits is is part of that soothing medicine that's keeping me grounded here. Oh, that's so sweet. Um yeah some when you were talking about the swinging it was taking me back to one of those classes where we had spoken about that and um so I suppose you are practicing what you're preaching because

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you already did also talk to us about the same thing around finding our windows of tolerance and then learning how to swing in and out of them and that kind of is our work right to build capacity um when we are outside that window anytime we cross over. So that's beautiful that you are practicing those things for yourself as well. Um what also came to my mind was and it was just so instinctive because it was a trip I took last year with my father to this town close by in the south of India where um there are huge tea estates. A

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lot of the whole a most of the town is known for tea and there's a tea factory and a tea museum where there's like on these huge boards they've written history of tea from colonial times in India and how all of that unraveled. Um yeah so anytime tea gets mentioned around the world I just feel this sudden feeling of uh you know where you know who worked for that tea do you know where it came from. It's just that very um my land, my people kind of feeling that comes in. >> Yeah.

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>> Yeah, definitely. No. And it's good to remember that. And I think one of the things about especially with Earl Grey tea, um which is kind of black tea with bergamont. Um it was presented to the Earl Gray and he liked it and then that's now what it's called, Mino. Um, and it's something that is, and not to to use the pun like intentionally, it is steeped in a lot of colonial history and um, yeah, and it's part it's part of our heritage for sure. >> Yeah, it's crazy how easy it is to dive

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into coloniality as topic cuz it's just everywhere. So anyone even thinking or saying, "Oh, I don't believe in these concepts and this this thing I'm doing has nothing to do with this other other thing in history." It just does. It somehow does. It's very interesting. Yeah. Um, so I would actually like to start somewhere big if that's okay with you. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. because I think it's the thing underneath everything else that we're going to talk about today.

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Um, so when you look at the world right now, not just news headlines, but the felt sense of it, the way it's showing up in people's bodies, in the rooms that you work in, what is it that you notice? What is the world asking of us right now that we're maybe not equipped to answer? Yeah, this is a really powerful question and the the formulation of it is actually something that I think I've been sitting and sit with all the time. Um, and where I am with this now is um with also an acknowledgement that

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there's I'm continuously learning and continuously um unraveling the ways of understanding. But from where I stand now, it is really in the first the first lesson of breath work, the first core message of breath work or the first core message of the breath which is acceptance. Um, and it's a really hard thing to do. But I think what we are the state that we're in right now is in this challenging process of accepting where we are. This challenging process of accepting where we have been, of really learning

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about our histories and our communities and what we need. One of the misconceptions around acceptance is that it is passive. that it's passive to accept something that it's a surrender. Um, and often we don't want to accept the realities that we're that we are in. Uh, because it means that we need to acknowledge some of the deep atrocities that we are surrounded by. And that's a really hard thing to do, but it's a really hard thing to fight reality. It's a really tiring thing to do. Um,

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and acceptance is actually a very active thing for you to take a full inhale, breathing in the all of the toxins, all of the pollutants in the air, all of the forests that have been cut down, all of the um carbon dioxide in the air, all of the viruses. you know, it's a really hard thing to actually take a deep breath and let everything in. And so and and I really understand because I'm I'm been moving through this myself that it's a really hard thing to accept the realities that we are in and

00:14:47

naming them as this moment can be really harrowing um and really disappointing and heartbreaking. And yet it's really hard for us to move with clarity or precision when we can't accept the the state that we're in. Um, and so what we often find is that we we find solutions that are kind of um that have parts of reality that are denied or there's things that kind of stories that aren't fully told or there's voices that are missing. Um and we take little versions of things that

00:15:36

we can accept but to really accept the whole picture is um is I think what it is that we are being asked to do but that means increasing our capacity increasing our capacity to stay with what is here. And that's all that we're learning to do as breath work facilitators, as facilitators coming through this program, is can we stay? Can we be here? Um even when things are uncomfortable or painful, even when things are not um joyous or joyful or easy, can we stay? Um and so often what I find is

00:16:22

that in our inability to accept there are beautiful strategies that we have created to survive that right this is why we breathe shallowly because we can't breathe a deep breath we can't accept that air um and so we breathe shallowly we dissociate we are disembodied and it takes a really long time to cultivate the trust in our bodies to be able to learn how to breathe fully and to stay um and so and it's really it's a really hard thing to do and so there's a lot of compassion I think there's also a huge

00:17:11

amount of um or there can be a huge amount of divisive techn techniques with for people that can't stay with it and are trying to seek comfort and and soo themselves. But there's a huge amount of compassion that I have been working on to be able to also accept where everyone is with this um and give each other enough grace and space to be able to welcome them in in in their own time. And so yeah, there is an urgency, but I feel that any urgency that is or any crisis that is attended to with urgency becomes a

00:17:59

crisis in and of itself. And so actually it requires us to really be slow. Um, and that is a really disappointing answer to any social change or collective change or um, anything that we're trying to do to bring about these kind of potential futures that we're thinking of as a collective. >> Yeah. But patience is a big one and I feel like that you've pointed it out perfectly because if the ones breathing like you like the people that are moving in life through you are also not able to find the

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patience for the other the other side of the experience then what is even the point of the work you know if it's still going to show up as urgency so I hear you um yeah I I don't I don't think most people walking around feeling anxious and overwhelmed think of it as something that was designed to make them feel this way. You know, they just think it's the weather and there's obviously a disconnect that happens there. Um so when you are working in these rooms I wonder what you think what does that

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do to a body over time when a person is living inside that the urgency the fear um the sense that there isn't ever enough time and the ground is always a little unsteady. What are you seeing in people and their bodies? Yeah, interestingly a the majority of things that I see is there's a lot of blame, self-lame mostly. Um and it is a tiring place to be to be in. And also I think because of the kind of hyperindividualized way that we have conditioned ourselves into health and wellness that it's uh something that we

00:20:09

carry ourselves. there's a lot of deep inner criticism that is happening and actually we've just developed to be really mean to ourselves. Um and the cultivation of a little bit of space for an alternative voice is has been in its in its simplicity of that has has been really helpful. Um, I think one of the things that especially in our collective spaces, I often think of the work that we do also as kind of context work. Um, we give people opportunities to experience the context. A lot of us are

00:21:01

have been put into kind of these individualized boxes that have kind of come up out of nowhere and yet we are all connected and how are we connected, the ways that we're connected and a lot of the work that we do especially with with this course is actually understanding our terrain, right? um understanding the kind of historical mapping of how we got here, understanding the systems that are at play. And one of the kind of deepest um most alleviating um process is actually doing the context

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mapping and kind of go, "Oh, okay. this isn't actually just me, my fault, like my problem. Um, that it's not just personal, that I'm not the only one, but these are systems that are designed is means it's such an alleviating pressure. Um, in as much as there's yeah, there's an awareness of that, an understanding of that, it also gives us a little bit of love to to do this to do this work. And yeah, what I'm noticing more in in individuals is that with the I would

00:22:25

also say the cultivation of the inner critic is also designed, right? It's a voice that we're trained to nurture because we're measuring ourselves up to characteristics of supremacy culture that we we as humans um don't and can't live up to. Um in the sense of like and don't aspire to, you know, either. Um, and so allowing ourselves to remind ourselves of our humanness within these systems of supremacy is really important. Um, and that's yeah, that's where the context

00:23:02

comes in. And then we can actually create a little bit more space for us to be human. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sure, an answer can expand over like hours and hours sometimes with these things, but it answers a lot. Yes. Thank you. Um yeah that's an interesting thing you said also around how the inner critic also is manufactured and while of course I I do agree with that in a larger sense of um how self-doubt can feel manufactured and the amount we've reached to today is definitely manufactured in my mind as

00:23:43

well but I'm I'm curious if um where your belief system is on just the human mind at large also with thoughts around not always thinking the best of ourselves. Um I don't think that was completely explanatory because I know how it's going around in my mind. I'm just going to take a minute to explain this more. Um, what I'm wondering is if a human mind was not subjected to modern society as it is today, as it's seen today, would we then have no thoughts where we would doubt something we're about to do

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or doubt our capability to do it? Would that just completely disappear or would it just reduce? Yeah, I think that's where >> Yeah, that's an interesting uh query. I think so where my belief system is right now on this which is rooted in um a decolonial approach. I would say that a lot of our self-doubt has been manufactured in the sense that we are taught to compare ourselves uh with each other but also with the dominant identity. Um, and this might mean kind of neurotypical, wealthy,

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privileged, educated. Um, it might be ones that have access to health and mobility, um, safety and all of these kind of things. And so the doubt, the self-doubt that can come up that I think is manufactured out of supremacy culture is when we compare ourselves to those characteristics. If we were able to accept the breadth of human skill and innovation and beauty outside of kind of white wellness and white western um ideals, I think the the levels of of doubt would would decre would decrease in terms of comparison, but I think our

00:26:02

um we would still have processes of risk assessment, right? and um also kind of measurements around um ambition um based on kind of family structures and status and things that kind of tend to come up out outside within whatever our living structures are. Um but I think a lot of our insecurities are are measured across those lines because those are the things that we're conditioned to value. Um, and that's also one of the most kind of griefy things about this is that you end up realizing that you value things that

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you don't actually value that aren't your values. Um, you're like, "Oh, I didn't realize that I was measuring myself up to this the whole time, you know." Um and so yeah, I think it's it's less that they'll go completely and we'll be, you know, completely um liberated from self-doubt, but it I think it would be considerably less and potentially more accurate in terms of risk assessment and skill assessment. >> Yeah, for sure. Because of course like

00:27:14

survival instinct and the conscious mind still exist and those will still make decisions bases. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. Okay. It's good to know of where your belief system is on that because that's basically what I was curious about like where you stand on that part. >> Yeah. And I would also maybe add like a lot of what a lot of what we do at Inspire Breath is also trying to break through the preconditioned ideas of what breath work looks like within the wellness space, right? Um and

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that invites every individual student that comes through to crack through into their own imagination. Um and a lot of our doubts also come from the kind of the the lack of muscle practice, right? the lack of muscle training of our imagination because we can't imagine anything outside of what already exists. Um, and that can bring a lot of insecurity. And this and it's a really tall ask of for me to have on my students to come with me to imagine breath work in a different way. And it's

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something that I'm so so grateful for um for those that are willing to lean in because it does mean training, you know, it means training your mind, means training the muscle of your imagination. Um and imagination has a bad reputation because it's something that has been conditioned out of us as when we are children, right? something that is called childish or daydreamy, but actually we really need our imagination. Um, for us to bring to life these imagined futures. Um, and so it's a it's a dance between these

00:29:16

conditioned insecurities with a with our imagination and what trust can be built in in those in between spaces. And I mean, for me to be in the space that I'm in, I've had to really there was no path for me laid out as to how to do this and how to survive under capitalism, doing the thing that I love. Um, following my purpose and connecting with people who are doing incredible work from all over the world. there was no path and I had to really lean into trust and my imagination. And it's not

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to say that there wasn't insecurities because I was surrounded by other people being like, "Okay, well, they had like they had a lot of startup funding to do that. Oh, they've had a lot of connections to do that. Okay, well, they've had and all of these comparison pieces actually made it really hard for me to do what I needed to do." Um so really yeah training that muscle of and cultivating trust within myself and the vision and the mission and the purpose and connecting with people was really

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really important. Um, I think we also suffer with our insecurities and doubt like independently as well. And so vocalizing that was also something really important to be able to vocalize a name. It's like, oh, okay, I have the thought that I can't do this, right? Um, or that I'm not supposed to or I'm not welcome, right? and really analyzing that those thoughts and giving myself a little bit more um precision and accuracy and actually seeing whether that was something that was true, you know. Um and so that has

00:31:13

been an interesting process. >> Yeah. Before I say anything else, I just want to say you really did it. I I'm in love with what you've created. It's so beautiful. So well done despite what any voices around you said. It's just really a beautiful organization and I'm studying with it. I'm working with it and can I call it she instead of it. Go ahead. >> Yeah. Cuz it feels like a she. Yeah. Yeah. She's a beautiful baby you've created and I'm so happy for you

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that you did keep resting in your imagination and went with it and it's a great example for anyone you're teaching also in fact. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Um there was a couple of things that were coming to my mind while you were also sharing those things around imagination and how we've kind of limited our thoughts to structures. Uh I was there was a part I was looking at um where this idea of a man and woman as a pair and that only being the standard also actually was not how society was

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seen before uh European culture and colonialism took over in a lot of the tribes around the world in Native America. in um African cultures in a lot of these parts of the world actually communities were seen as groups of people working together whether it's emotionally sexually u child rearing whatever it was even the idea of gender fluidity was a lot freer before Christianity set in and missionaries set in and so that also that essentially all points to is a lack of imagination on people's parts to then

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comply to this new order essentially. Um and in fact Aloque Menon of course you know them um they said this really beautiful thing that I was listening to the other day. I don't think anything they say is not beautiful actually. But um this one that stayed with me was around them talking about being non-binary and they said uh straight people think that when we're saying uh non-binary is not wrong, we're trying to say they are wrong. All we're trying to say essentially is that just like you get to

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say you're a man and you're a woman, all I'm asking you to do is just let your imagination accept that there's more. That when you're looking up at the sky and there are all these stars and one star shining does not dim another star. It's just that that man and women are two of many. They're not two and only two that exist. Um, and it's such a simple thought, but that's all it shows that you're just not willing to accept that a mind can think beyond your understanding

00:34:32

of limited options. >> Yeah. And it comes back to kind of your original question of what are the main challenges that we have right now um as a collective and it's our inability to accept, right? that regardless of whether we believe it or not, there are ve multiple different magical people in the world. Um whether you you whether that fits within the colonial imagination or not, that's does exist, right? Um, and so yeah, I'm really curious this kind of next evolution or iteration of what it means

00:35:16

to be human if we can really practice acceptance um on a on a broad scale. Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's lack of imagination and also lack of a skill to like study history really. you you're basically just lacking a skill to study because if you really studied and went back into history, this all existed. It's all documented. Um, so all they're doing is basically saying, "No, no, we we are not going to believe anything that came before us." Uh, because we eradicated that, so we're

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not going to talk about it anymore. But all all you're showing as a colonial person, I imagine, in that moment is that, oh, I'm not smart enough. I'm not smart enough to just read a book and accept what's written in that book. >> Yeah. And it's really it's really hard when because we can really see this as an individual effort and I really do believe that we all have the tools for our own liberation. Absolutely. But when we've been so conditioned and so primed um and this is where the um

00:36:31

yeah the element of understanding systems is really helpful because this is designed right um and if it's rooted in education well who's designing the education what they're being taught right um and I think the yeah I think the element of division that can come up um in these moments is is really is valid because it's a really hard place to be but then practicing compassion for the other is also really hard but we all we all have been duped induced uh seduced reduced into the colonial paradigm um and

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doing this work that we do together really shakes that. It really compromises that. And if our identity and ego has been built on those foundations, then this is a really scary thing to do. Um because it forces you to re um re-evaluate who you are. Um, and for for a lot of us, especially those that are really living like hand to mouth, there it's a there there isn't time to um to learn, you know, there isn't there's a lot of people that don't have time to educate themselves and it's um it's

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really survival out here and um that is also the process of acceptance that is that is needed to happen here. Um, and then how do we bring each other with us, right? How do we bring each other along with the levels of capacity that everyone has? >> Yeah. I I interviewed with Beth last week who is a special education teacher who's also I mean you have all the history on her. Um but we also spoke so much and she also is a is a former uh practicing Christian. So there was just so much context of this exact conversation

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around how the education system is um convoluted and how there's just chunks of topics removed because they allow space for imagination. um and instead it's become a structure of indoctrination instead of education. Yeah. But I hear you on having compassion for the other side and how that is a big task and I suppose um yeah it's not a task we are hoping for a colonial mind to take up because that's not what coloniality is based in. So I suppose it is on the other side to do it and balance it out.

00:39:29

Thank you for bringing that back into perspective. I also wonder how a nervous system is responding to these sort of things. Right? uh we spoke about imagination being barred through this but initially we also spoke about how uh the self-doubt is manufactured and I feel like I want to bring in the idea of pain also there because the capacity to hold pain the way it shows up um I wonder how that lands you you know, in a colonial world because I was sitting with a friend who um who has spent some time with the

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tribes in the Amazon and done research with them, spoken to them, lived out there for a while. And he mentioned this really interesting incident where he spoke to the women in the tribe and they were talking about child birth and their children and how they rare children in their community and then he did end up asking and what about the pain during childbirth and they just literally looked at him and said what pain? What are you talking about? and he was just like oh wow this is I did not imagine that reply you know

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so I'm curious now in the space of breath work you've been in it for 12 years and you had your own history going into it you've also worked and taught and studied with people who have their own histories um how has it been showing up in the nervous system in terms of pain, in terms of stress, those kinds of factors. >> Yeah. I think the the way that I would like to answer this is kind of part is in part of um reference to the mapping the trauma mapping that we did in um in our third unit um

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which is the work from Dr. Ruper Maria who created this kind of trauma mapping of how trauma is designed and then the consequence of trauma is inflammation. And um her and her colleague have written a book called inflamed which has which really unpacks um the history of inflammation. And yeah, this is really curious cuz we were cuz you've also had a session um a podcast with Ila and talking about pain, right? A lot of the histories of pain and sickness can also be traced back to the histories and lineages of our trauma

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um and what we've inherited not just as systems but intergenerationally um in our lineage. the pains that our ancestors have had to move through that now manifest in physical form. Um, a lot of I would say this anecdotally because there's always research that can be done further to understand this, but a lot of emotional pain that I've seen a lot of emotional pain unattended manifests in physical pain. And this can also lead not only to physical pain but actual diseases, right? and cancers in various forms. And

00:43:24

I'm interested in the emotional charge of of our nervous systems in what our nervous system holds. Um, and how our bodies have leared to brace the pain that we've inherited and that we continuously encounter on a daily basis. And with breath work, as as simple as it is, it reminds us that our bodies are moving, consistently moving, that there is possibilities for things to move through. Um, and there is this idea that kind of there's, you know, there's language around stuckness, right? pain being

00:44:09

stuck or trauma being stuck and this kind of element of now we're stuck. But actually our our bodies and our nervous systems are beautifully dynamic. They are always in movement. Um and it's whether we have the skills and the tools to be able to let that movement um happen. And we often just get in our own ways really um when we do this. And not to say that it's easier than it looks. It's really hard. Um but in our avoidance or aversion to pain, we tend to create more of it. Um in our

00:44:55

aversion or avoidance of conflict, we tend to create more of it. Right? um in our aversion or avoidance of heartache, loneliness, we actually create more of it. And so what I have noticed over time is the deep requirement of courage at this time for everyone to be able to lean in um to be able to really inquire with curiosity and openness and actually see see what's here. um and see with accuracy what is here. Not just on a superficial kind of level or you know on a kind of um more of a superficial being

00:45:43

surface level but actually what is what is here that I have in my body in my nervous system that wants to move. Um and a lot of our postures for example is protection right the way that we hold our body. Um, and it's a really curious thing to start getting interested in um our our shapes and how we show up and the shape that we're in and um and getting curious as to why if that is protection, what is it protecting us from? Um, but what is it also protecting us? So not just what is it protecting us from but

00:46:26

what is it protecting us from doing right um and sometimes it could be also the dissolution of that um which is why a lot there's there can be a lot of resistance to healing because it means changing shape um and it might mean actually changing who we believe that we are. I find the um another piece that comes in. So we've got the kind of trauma mapping here, but also the quote from Resma um that we bring into class often. You know that trauma decontextualized in a society looks like cultural norms,

00:47:06

right? Uh trauma decontextualized in a family looks like family traits and trauma decontextualized in an individual looks like personality, right? And so often when I first encountered this um this contribution of thought into my trauma map, it was a it was a really um jarring thing because I thought I knew who I was, you know, cuz I that's and my personality was all of these things, but actually a lot of who I thought I was were protective survival mechanisms like um whether it was health oriented or

00:47:52

movement oriented or how I spent my time or the type of people I hung around or whether I go out at night or not or whether I drink alcohol or not or whether I um am extroverted or not, you know. Um and so looking at that shape and understanding what what are the emotional pains here? um that are present and moving towards it with curiosity. Um but we are we are so conditioned to be averse to pain. Um it's it's well within our wiring, but actually when it comes to our historical pain, this is where we

00:48:35

need a bit of courage. >> It did sound like you've thought a lot about this cuz there was just such a yeah wondrous scope of things. um that were on your mind. It was beautiful to like listen through them. Uh lots of like pearls of wisdom there also for me. Um this this question what is here? It's something that you throw in ever so casually in your sessions. And I've only recently realized how beautiful a question it is. And while you're in a session, how much it actually makes you reflect while you're

00:49:22

inward. Uh just the simple what is here? >> Um >> yeah, >> there's always much more. Yeah, there's always so much more than you think. Um yeah and and the lay the layers of our protection is also really beautiful when we start kind of really practicing our vimbers, right? understand all of those kind of different levels and layers and um do you remember when we were doing the work with Katie and the the levels of of that and just upon like upon initial response we kind of thought oh okay that's that's

00:50:09

what it is and it's like okay but what else is here and then taking the time to go through the layers and being patient enough for them for the presence of our sensations to be revealed and the different protective mechanisms around our nervous system and what it feels like to enter the body. It was just so rich. Um, and I think just an add-on to that with with the element of courage that cultivating the skill of curiosity is also so important. We think we know things, right? We think we know and

00:50:44

understand and that there's nothing else. But you know there's a lot of um kind of like yeah yeah yeah this is it but coming with a curious mind and um this is what I also often say in our classes that the role of the facilitator is to be way more curious about our breather than they've ever been and it's how can we do that? How can we get so curious about our breather that it opens up other opportunities and explorations? Um and so yes, the cultivation of of courage and also deep

00:51:22

deep curiosity. >> Yeah, I hear you. But this also has manufactured the lack of curiosity because anytime I think of any friends who still work in the corporate world and I have chats with them or even when I was doing that just not too long ago. It's one of those spaces where you cannot show up ever in a way that like you can't look like you don't know something because that's seen as a bad thing or as something that won't get you the money you asked for. It won't get

00:51:53

you the stature you asked for. So you always even the things you have no idea about, you show up as, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this. I know this. And there's only so far you can go letting yourself fake it internally. Cuz sure you can be confident enough to fake it and make it and do that whole process but then the internal experience is getting so jaded in that whole journey that at the end you're even if you're confident you don't know who is this person who's confident cuz it's not you.

00:52:28

>> Mhm. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was a really personal experience for me to be honest. It was coming started talking about it as friends who are in this space. But like I think this is something I did for a really long time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that that pride never set in for me for the longest time I think cuz everything I was showing up as was not actually me. And so then even if I was achieving things, even if someone was saying, "Oh, you did so well." I'm like,

00:53:03

I guess, but like I don't feel it internally cuz it wasn't me. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. Yeah. Another thing you said that I really loved in that last part that you spoke about was the shapes we end up taking, the way we move our bodies and like the I guess the folded arms, the drooping shoulders. The drooping shoulders are a whole other process in my mind because as women there is no other way for us to walk safely. So we've done so much of it. But well uh I feel like I'm going to steer

00:53:44

away from the gender topic for now because that becomes a whole other podcast for me personally. Um yeah, but it's a really sweet thought of um the shapes our body do take to protect us. And it um made me reflect on an appointment I had with an osteopath just a few weeks ago because I've had um an injury in my lower back for the last one and a half year now. And for anyone listening, an osteopath is a medical professional who also who deals with muscular and uh vertebral pains in the body, but from a holistic

00:54:32

point of view where they're also tapping into your stored trauma and everything else the body is experiencing emotionally. And I'm only defining this for the audience because anyone I spoke to, I thought everyone would know what it is, right? But anytime I spoke to even my parents, they were like, "Oh, who's that?" I was like, "Don't you know any all the names of these surgeons that you keep naming to me? How do you not know this one? Cuz it's the only one that focuses on

00:54:59

anything except alopathic medicine." So, I just felt like it was in at least some people's interest for me to explain that. Um, yeah. and she mostly just felt my neck throughout the 45 minute session, but she knew everything. She she asked me if I had had an accident recently cuz she said there was some whiplash there which only occurs through a physical trauma. Uh but she felt that whiplash here in my ear, which is crazy cuz the injury was in my foot. And then she did spend some time on my

00:55:34

back. And during that process, while I winced in pain for a while, at some point during that process, that pain turned into a cry and it did feel something deeper. Um, and then we spoke later and she said these exact things that you were talking about right now. She said, "Your lower body prey was shifted and facing this specific direction. It was twisted, which I've worked on realigning right now, which wasn't allowing this other part of your body to even find healing. And it was probably just a result of

00:56:11

things your body did to protect you from something. So now maybe you can spend the some time, some weeks, like just talking to your body and telling it that doesn't need that protection anymore and you're fine cuz that process is it feels like it's complete now. And I was just like h and sure I've been in this uh space of this kind of work where you trust your body um for a little bit. So it wasn't the most surprising for me to hear that. But it still was a little like unbelievable almost

00:56:49

magical more magical which I love about these things right cuz I've heard lots of stories but I hadn't really experienced it myself and then it felt like something else entirely. Yeah. Yeah. I loved how you worded that. The shapes our bodies take. Yeah. Lots of shapes. And I think that there's also um just there's an kind of ongoing discussion in my mind around authenticity because in the wellness space everyone was talking about being authentic. Um and it's a really curious

00:57:31

um expectation for everyone to be authentic if we haven't cultivated collective safety. Um and actually the way that our the shape that our bodies take in each moment is actually authentic because that is what is required in that moment based on the body's internal um safety examination and that is authentic. But there's this kind of idea that authenticity is truer to who you really are. Um but it's such a to demand authenticity I think is really entit is a really entitled uh position

00:58:18

to take. Um because it requires the expectation that people feel safe enough in your presence to be authentic. But safety is cultivated, trust is cultivated. It takes time and it's not a fault or a defect of any individual if they can't be authentic. Um I think as as well with a kind of with a neuroexpansive lens and understanding people whose wiring is very different. There's multiple other ways of existing that are different versions and authenticity is what is present right now. And I think

00:58:57

that that whatever we're being seen, whatever we're being shown is authentic for that moment. Um, but this idea of core this idea of core authenticity is quite curious. I'm kind of I'm still moving my body and breath around this thought. Um, but yeah, there's something quite curious here as well for me. Yeah, I hope there's like a lot more reflection on that and then by the time next time we sit to do this, there's just a whole new pool of wisdom under that topic. Yeah. Yeah.

00:59:36

Or it's gone just into a much wider exploration. Yeah. Whichever it'll be, I'm sure it'll be fun. >> Yeah. We'll see. >> Painfully fun how a lot of these things are. That's all. Yes. >> So, it's really interesting that you brought in authenticity uh just now and we also already spoke about imagination for quite a bit in the last 30 minutes. Um cuz there's another thing that I have genuinely been grappling with. Uh and I know you definitely have thoughts on

01:00:14

this. Um there's a very alive conversation happening everywhere in the world right now around technology um specifically AI and most of it is around productivity or jobs or what is possible. Uh what I'm what I am interested in maybe is what you notice they're doing to people on the inside in the rooms you work in and the students you teach. What are you seeing? Yeah, thank you for asking this. Um, so I was trying to get a little bit more of a clearer understanding of how my body sits with

01:00:59

AI. Um and I think one of the things that has been really pertinent um in understanding kind of the I guess the values that we're um that we're adding to it and I do I have experienced a lot of people really benefiting from um the the presence of and development of AI in various different ways whether it's knowledge based or um function based still whether it's helping to organize um and we all have our own relationship to it and I think it's um I think that's something that

01:01:45

the examination of our relationship is really important to be able to take our time with it. Um, but one of the things that I've landed on and I'm very open to elaborating and and learning more. But where I am right now is that I understand AI more as this uh let's say as the colonizer's favorite child. Um, it is the the heir the the you know the the the descendant that the colonial paradigm has always been dreaming of. um the inheritor and yeah the inheritor of the colonial dream and I think there's

01:02:38

something really interesting when we understand it in that way because AI performs right it is per it performs it um does things let's say right in the way that they understand it objectively right? High value, high product, um rooted in kind of perfection and rationality. It um gives us certainty and um it is always present and yet it is on the backs of a lot of people. There's a lot of human lives that suffer at the cost of the hands of AI. Um whether it's environmental or labor um or resource.

01:03:32

Um and I think the the things that we tend to value in AI are characteristic are characteristics of supremacy culture. Um and that's why it is so valued because we have been conditioned to value those consistently again and again and again. And what tends to happen is that especially in the communities that I'm a part of, there is this now coming back to this idea of insecurity, right? That we started off a con a continuation of that that we are comparing ourselves to AI, right? That we are comparing humans

01:04:10

to AI and that AI are going to surpass us, right? um because it is better at certain things because it is but it's because they embody right AI embodies it is designed to be the perfect child of colonialism um and if anything it has made this comparison with supremacy culture very very clear for me anyway um and and I think that it allows us also to enter a different dynamic um that allows us a feeling of power because we then step into the master's shoes, right? um telling AI what to do to do things

01:05:00

for us to um like it may have given a perfectly fine iteration of something but we're like do it again but a bit better you know um do it again but smoother friendlier right do it again but um and I think that there's also a a really interesting exploration of power in um in the ways that we interact with with AI. Um thinking that it's costless, right? Thinking that it's free. Um and the idea that it has been primarily shared open uh as an open source thing that we can anyone who has an internet

01:05:47

connection can access that it feels free but it's not. is very very costly and that's kind of one of the dangers of this type of labor. Um we don't we don't know the cost of it. Um and I think that yeah it it forces us to value again the characteristics of supremacy culture. And so that's something that has been really present for me in understanding what our relationship to AI is. Yeah. >> And I imagine when you're talking about these characteristics, it's stuff like,

01:06:26

you know, critical thinking being lost, like more um artificial thinking over um intuitive thinking, more generative thought instead of creativity, stuff like that. Yeah. >> Yeah. binary thinking either or um like reason over emotion, perfectionism. Um I think that I think it also leans into urgency because it's immediate. It's right there, right? It works really, really quickly. Um and I'd be curious if we Yeah. if what what the relationship would be if it actually takes a couple

01:07:12

of weeks to do a bit of work, right? Um uh but even things like um worshiping the written word that it's like it's very articulate, right? Um that there's a lot of quantity over quality in this. Um there's kind of an element of one there's one right way with it. Um and so and it's quite curious about how it has been designed and it it has primarily been kind of a euroentric lens that has has designed it that it really releases any cultural other cultural uh coordinates that allow us to to think

01:08:05

differently. Um and it I think one of the things that's really present and in our course for example we meet on a lot of our courses delivered online and on Zoom and one of the things that we were very aware of at the beginning of the course is how um how these online spaces um rob us of culture because we're putting putting each other in these little boxes. it strips us of of that. Um, and so how do we bring culture and creativity into these online spaces? Um and I think the the element of having this one way of

01:08:49

thinking that is dis that is dispersed across the global collective as the most powerful thing um as the highest intellect is a really dangerous uh proposition and the the element of kind of indigenous wisdom or other ways of knowing or knowing things in ways that aren't linear necessarily um is really undervalued or even kind of there's there's now space for it to be lost completely. Um and so yeah, I'm really I'm really curious how how it's going to evolve. And I know that there's

01:09:34

um this element of convenience and ease that AI brings to people and there's also this element of speed um that we're all in a competitive rush for something. Um and a lot of people want to save time, right? So I think AI also invites us into an examination of our of our relationship to time. Um, yeah. And I think another kind of side tangential thought around this is what is worth our time doing. And sometimes it's when it when we're talking about processes and things like that, we want to save time. Um, and when

01:10:22

we are in a rush, the first thing that falls off the table is care. Um and this is something that we we know quite intrinsically when we examine urgency and that's something that we've moved through as part of the course as well. Right? If we move through things quickly, the first thing that falls off our table is care. And so this is something that I really see um also emerging in in communities is the the absence of care. Um and and care takes time and but we are in a time but through capitalism and

01:11:02

colonialism this element of time is also deeply um yeah it's a deeply challenging relationship and so these are these are things that come up for me when I'm when I'm thinking about that. Yeah, I think you asked a really interesting and important question there where you said what is our time really worth? Like what are we trying to really do with our time? And I would even go as far as to say um initially when these conversations around AI started I remember a lot of talk on social media about people saying oh you

01:11:38

know if we're really going to use things like these why don't we get it to like find ways for it to go wash our dishes and do our laundry and we'll do the thinking part like the people who were at least on the side of you know let our let us be artists don't use it to create art and stuff let it do this instead. And I would even go as far as to say honestly washing my dishes is a part of human experience that I don't want to remove from my life. That is worth my time. To say that someone else needs to

01:12:11

do that for me is already a colonial and a castist way to think about it, right? um like the labor that it takes for me to be alive is now labor someone else some other person has to do for me when we look at classism and casticism um and then it's not very different to say oh I want AI to do that for me then you're just removing all these experiences that are very integral and in in uh visceral as a human being honestly to get your hands where to in fact one of the courses I did was um on

01:12:54

mindfulness and mindfully washing your plate was an activity we were trying to inculcate and then we're saying oh let someone else do that for us that's not even human. Yeah. Yeah. And it's something that is um what tends to happen like right now as well living kind of um or moving through kind of the process of understanding ourselves. Part of the the training that I invite you in to do is at the end of each unit like to write your reflections and how the um and what you've learned,

01:13:38

right? And one of the I kind of had a prediction at the beginning of this year or maybe beginning of last year where I was kind of thinking, okay, we need to get ourselves writing. Not all of us are writers, but we we do need to practice writing. Um, and in part that was because of there's an awareness that there's going to be a lot of AI generated content. Um, and it's actually moved faster than I anticipated. I thought it would happen in the next 5 years, but it's really present now,

01:14:09

which I think is a really important thing to be aware of that people are now looking for human generated content, which is a bizarre thing to have to say. Um, but it's going to be a skill that is going that is really necessary. And for a lot of people who's outsourcing their writing um into AI, that's something that we really focus on in the course. is like, "Okay, wait. Let's practice writing and actually learning how to translate the ideas that we're being invigorated by or agitated

01:14:47

by, how they move through us on a cellular level and use the language that makes sense to us in the communities that we are in. Um, and that is very specific. It's very human specific. It's very interreational. Um, and the language that you use is going to be very different to the language that I use, right? Um, even though we're both speaking English, right? Um, but if we outsource that to uh an AI, there wouldn't be that distinction necessarily. Um, and I think the other piece that's really important

01:15:23

is that a lot of culture is communicated in our language. um in how we say things in the sentence structure in syntax in uh rhythm in in the way that we pause and the breaths that we take in the sentences and um and I think even if it's a piece of pros even if it's an informative piece of text um those are things that are really indicative of the time and I think that's something really beautiful. So, that's something that I do encourage all of our students cuz it's it's how people

01:15:57

get to know you. Um, and if we don't let ourselves practice writing or expressing ourselves through our own words, it's really hard to to know who you're working with or or how or how you work. Um, so yeah, this is something that we're kind of developing as as part of our cohorts. Um and and something that you're a part of obviously. Um but it's something that's that's really important. Yeah. And I and I suppose I have to ask what do you make of the planet in all of

01:16:36

this because it obviously feels like the body of the earth and the bodies of people are having a very similar experience right now. >> Yeah. I mean, one of the deep principles that we have on the course is that if it's present in the social body, it's present in our body. Um, and any attendance to any of the ways that we've been induced into the colonial paradigm will help to heal, quote unquote, heal, which is also a contentious word. Um, but I think that there's also the

01:17:12

element of that the way that we treat our planet is rooted in the way we treat our people. Um, and the way that we treat our people is rooted in the way that we treat ourselves. And the way that we treat ourselves is uh rooted in the way that we treat the different parts of ourselves that we've been taught to shun or to abandon or to be ashamed of. Um, there are so many ways that we've been taught to extract and discard and abuse our planet. Um, and we have also learned how to do that with

01:17:56

our s our own bodies. Um, and it's less about saving the world. um in the same way that it's less we're not trying to save ourselves in this process, but it's more about how can we create enough space within ourselves for all of these parts to exist. Um and to be able to look at our wounds with accuracy and learn to stay right. Um, and there are things like, um, we have this idea that the world is is very big and we can kind of throw something out and never see it again, but it always comes back around. People

01:18:46

are still here. Um, and nothing really goes away. If it's if it leaves your house, it shows up at another person's front door, right? Um, and that's accurate around waste, that's accurate around our own trash and rubbish, it's accurate around water, it's accurate around energy. Um, and so it's more around how can we actually look at the things um and see the whole picture of it. Um it's less about saving the world but become remembering that we are it. It's we are

01:19:30

learning to become it. Um and I think that that's also an attendance to the parts that we might feel um drawn to. A lot of people are drawn to kind of breath work because of the desire to save, right? But we're not here to save. Um we're not here to save the world. We're not here to save people, but we're here to be with them fully. Um and so how does how can we do that? And what is here? You're going to you're made very aware of how often I use that now. But yeah, so what is here? What is really here? um

01:20:19

so that we can really learn to be able to hold space for it. >> Yeah. There's something so interesting to me about the timing of all of this. Honestly, we're just in this moment where there's a massive turn towards the artificial and the optimized and then simultaneously there's also this other movement. Um, and and like we've discussed, it's quieter and more patient, but just as strong, which is back to the ancestral and the ancient and the sematic. And yeah, I'm also just very curious to

01:20:59

see how it all unfolds. And there's actually a very interesting thing on uh the aspect of planet where there was actual research on all the ways that these data centers could be cooled. Um of course they're cutting down forest to build the data center first. That's a separate issue. Another big thing that started going around when AI started was how there's so much water wastage because every every uh question you're asking it, every word it's typing is taking say 3 L of water, whatever

01:21:36

that statistic is. And there was so much research into what all they can use as um technology to cool these spaces because they're using energy and they are heated and their computer systems and there was options. there was like five other options they could have picked. But because water was seen as the cheapest source to do it with, that's what was picked. Which when I read about this, I I was just like, h how how how did something that your own whole species like the whole human race needs this

01:22:18

resource to survive? It's not it's not a luxury resource. It's survival. Even people on fasts, like on protest fasts, the only thing they drink is water. It's literally survival. And already there is a dirt of it on the planet. Already there are populations dying without access of it. And then you still went and thought that was the smartest way to do this. it genuinely just like any any sort of which is why I feel like this thing you say about having compassion is just so hard right because when you

01:22:59

see the option picked the option is always at the expense of the class that doesn't have privilege to pay for resources and that's who does pay for it then in all these other ways of health, of the air they're breathing, of the water they're drinking. Yeah. So, as as curious as I am, I'm also quite heartbroken about all of it on many days. And this like I I think hearing hearing you say that is kind of another reminder of how important it is to stretch our capacity. Um because heartbreak is painful and

01:23:47

We're so conditioned to run away from it. And so, how can how can both be true, right? How can we be here and be heartbroken and still and still stay in the conversation and still be part of it? Um and I think a lot of there have been a lot of initiatives in um in moving to alternatives or offering kind of or even kind of divesting and and things like that which I think are are and can be really powerful and I think this is where our imagination is then really important to come back into um and

01:24:34

the cultivation of of that skill to be able to think to dream our ways out of um these very extractive systems. Yeah. Needing a minute to cuz I also you know how I wrote in the feelings group last night about um the forests around where I grew up being cut down and it genuinely does break something very internal watching trees. I think watching trees and watching animal rescue things, all of that kind of lands the same in my body personally and it yeah it really pains. Um I think what is what tends to be missing

01:25:21

is this is love and like if there was deep love of this planet we really wouldn't be in the space that we're in. Right? If we really loved the environment and the nature and that we are surrounded by, we wouldn't treat it in this way, you know. And um and similarly right if we really truly loved our families and our the people and ourselves and it's a yeah it's quite a hard revelation to sit with um because of course there are many forms of different types of love and I think what is also being pedestalled in

01:26:15

in the west is romantic love but we don't necessarily necessarily spend as much time or investment in other forms of love. And I think that like love and justice are the same for me, right? I think it was was it apprentice who said that love that justice is love in public? Um, and there's something that is really beautiful about that that a lot of the ways that we show up for our communities and our environments is is love. And so how this all this work is love work. Um what we do together um is love work. All

01:26:55

the the ways that you show up in your community with the breath and with your lived experience and skills is love work. Um all the ways that our students are doing our research and looking looking at different ways that breath work can show up in the public domain. That's love work. Um, and in as much as we all have our own ways of showing up, um, I guess, and I'll probably add that activism looks very different in different bodies, in different places, and but this is a deep this course and this training and this

01:27:32

school that I've built here is is a big part of my activism. Um, and we need all different types, right? For some people it's through music. For some people it's through art, creativity. Others it's through um really showing like up with their bodies on in protest and on the streets. And for for others it's in divesting and putting their skills into different areas. And we all we need all forms. Um and so yeah, like leaning into that I guess is really important and remembering that um in the

01:28:15

same in the same breath. I do like genuinely do I go back to that often. This is something I was grabbing while you were talking. This was 11th of November and I literally did start also with all of this is love work because it was the first thing you said uh when we began the course last year and I really do try to lean into it as much as possible. Um but yeah, thank you for going on building. It is so much work and intention and um yeah agitation in a very rooted patient way and I really appreciate that. Yeah.

01:29:00

So then with all of this in the backdrop, I actually do want to ask you about something you have been building, something that feels to me like a direct response to everything we've just actually been talking about. Um would you like to tell me and everyone listening perhaps about breathing beyond empire? Uh not the program description maybe to begin with, but just where the thought came from. What was the moment or accumulation of moments that made you feel like this needed to exist? >> Yeah.

01:29:37

So, breathing breathing beyond empire um is first an acknowledgement that the remnants of empire still live within our bones. Um, it is the acknowledgment that our colonial values have kind of seeped into every cell of our body and that we we carry them although they were never asked to carry. Um, I think with a a decolonial approach to breath work and also this work rooted in embodied social justice, it was really important to understand that we both carry the colonizer and the colonized, the oppressor and the oppressed, um, the

01:30:25

perpetrator and the survivor within our own bodies at all times. Um, and I think when this first the first iterations of Breathing Beyond Empire came because I felt a lot of social justice movements were trying to be the good ones. Um, and to put them themselves in positions of goodness and right. Um, but we are all in this system and this colonial paradigm that it's actually really hard for us to extract ourselves from from the systems of oppression. Um, and that is also a really hard pill to

01:31:13

swallow in in terms of wanting to be good. I think the aspiration and intention of wanting to be good is really beautiful, but it's really hard to do that if we can't accept and take accountability of the ways that we've participated in pain, in oppression, um, in systems of extraction, which we are all part of. Um and so breathing beyond empire was looking at it's it's based on the work of Tamer Oaken um who's compiled a a list of characteristics of supremacy culture and it's an open- source um

01:31:53

space that they collaborated with many other writers and thinkers. Um, but it's looking at the characteristics in a really intentional, deep, and quite gently aggravating way. Um, where we explore how these inherited patterns shape how we move through the world. Um, and it first kind of came around with a with an initiative that I started in 2020 called the forest garden. And there may be some folks listening that were a part of that um back in the day. Um and it's still it's I can still feel the shape of it. Um the

01:32:38

forest garden. I'm not entirely sure what that iteration looks like, but it was really uh its intention was to dive deep into the ways that we have been taught to oppress and how can we embody change in in a really accurate and precise way. Um and so we were looking at those characteristics one by one and over time we created these processes um collectively and it's now something that I share as uh with our wider community. Um, but it's really around being able to cultivate a humility

01:33:19

within us enough to be able to look at the ways that we've caused harm. Um, not just and not just to others, but also to ourselves and to really deeply listen. Um, and yeah, and I think that um, Breathing Beyond Empire ends up being kind of a foundation in an embodied experience of what it looks like to decolonize. Um I think one of the challenging things um right now is that we have the instruction to you know decolonize your practice or decolonize your thinking and we're all doing that

01:34:09

but it's like okay but like how though like what does that look like is it um and so I really wanted to create a space where the integrity that people have and the commitment that people have to decolonize becomes a reality that it becomes something that is practiced. Um, and it's a space where the values of love and ethics can be practiced in a way that is in real attendance to the wounds of our um, yeah, colonial collective history. Um, and it's something that I really really love and

01:34:47

it has been so um, transformational and I use that word very uh, sparingly. I don't tend to use that word actually, but it's a it's really it really has shifted the ways that I interact in relationship, in uh my family dynamics, in the ways that I engage with food. And um kind of my purchasing power. Um, and I think that this has been really important because it allows us to remember how powerful we are in the small the smallalness of us, you know, like um and how these kind of global ideas of

01:35:34

decolonizing can be enacted really really locally. um and bring about such a incredible process of liberation. Um I do really stand on this kind of foundation um that Fannon brings that this idea that education is either there to um make us conform or to liberate us. like education is there to either make us conform or to liberate us. And it's I really am trying to create a space where this is I'm really not interested in being the same. I'm really not interested in doing everything in the

01:36:21

same way. I'm actually interested in your own process of liberation. Um and the these breath work sessions. So it's involving an embodied exper experience of the characteristics, breathing through it, understanding where it is and how it manifests and actually challenging them. Um and creating and creating this other value system that we we have chosen. Um and so those are those are the kind of the key aspect of breathing beyond empire. H that actually sounds uh extremely elaborative. The the idea that you read

01:37:03

someone's work around characteristics of a culture and then you wanted to break it down in a beautiful way and then also do it in a way where education can feel liberating instead of like indoctrination and confirming. Yeah, I love that. Uh I love hearing about that and it's not a course I've attended personally before. Um and I won't be this time either. So I think this is everything I will be listening right now will be as deeply as I go into it for now. So it's really helpful. Um

01:37:35

and so I imagine anyone walking into this course also a course like this requires a person to set an intention while they're coming in. Not in a way of setting an intention. just mean that the work is intentional and uh it's not one of those things that you just walk into as oh let me try this out you know cuz we do that with a lot of practices um so when if a person is entering intentionally when you imagine this person um who are they maybe not demographically if demographically is valid then that too

01:38:13

but just what is their inner landscape um what might they be carrying that the course can help them meet? Yeah, I think the so the primary focus around this work is to remember our agency um and to remember how um how powerful we are and also to acknowledge that there are two kind of key elements that that is present when we're talking about decolonial healing or decolonizing um our minds, bodies, spirits. Um, and the first one is an awareness of dismantling. And so this is what Breathing Beyond Empire does. It

01:39:04

actually looks at the different characteristics and and examines them in a in a deep way and how it shows up. But the other side is also the process of re-indigenizing, remembering, reconnecting. Um, and it's it's a really hard thing to do one without the other because both are necessary. Um, and both are necessary at the same time. Um, and so I I'm aware that a lot of people have moved into this kind of work primarily on a practical level, right? dismantling in terms of kind of activism and um maybe

01:39:48

even thinking about, you know, challenging the ways that they relate to different people or identity, um gender, sexuality, orientation, um but also but not having done the re-indigenizing process of remembering, right? Um or there's people who've gone really into kind of spiritual practice or reconnecting with their roots. um but haven't done so much of an analysis of the systems of power. Um and so that's so those are kind of where I see people come in to this work. Um another piece

01:40:27

is folks who I guess but this is everyone in inspire I think is the cultivation of safety within our own bodies. So I think a lot of people who um come into this work have been and have understood that that safety is not guaranteed um and that we have continuously been gaslit into thinking that it's our problem if our nervous system doesn't feel safe um when actually the systems around us are designed for that. Right? So um it's people who are really wanting to cultivate safety in their own body to

01:41:14

cultivate choice and skill when it comes to your own nervous system and uh choice of engagement and also the cultivation of inner strength um in this um I think the other kinds of folks that come into this work are people who are already intuitive ly doing this, but would benefit from language um from like just adding the vocabulary that's needed to make sense of the things that they've already intuitively moved through. Um, a lot of the people that benefit from the work that we do with Breathing Beyond Empire,

01:41:59

but also with Inspire Breath Work generally is being given a language to express and um to translate some of their already deeply intuitive um wisdom that they've already encountered. So there's there's quite a few different folks that come in for different reasons. It is um an intentionally compassionately agitating course um because we do need to shake our foundations but shaking our foundations doesn't mean that we need to shake ourselves um and so what does building kind of resilience

01:42:40

to manufactured fear look like right what does building kind of um resistance to the ways that we've that the ways that propaganda move through, right? Um, and what does cultivating trust in our own self and sense of of who we are when we are consistently being told who we are. Um, and I think those are yeah, those are the key things that tend to show up as part of this course. And it's it's tough and like all of this work is tough, but it's so fun. It's fun. I really enjoy it. Um it's

01:43:23

something that um yeah, that really fulfills me doing this work because it allows allows us to exist in ways that we never really given ourselves permission to. Um and it allows us to really question um who we are. And the thing is actually we do a lot of this um work in as part of the inspire breath work uh facilitated training but just in different in a different form. Um so it's a little taster I guess of what can happen in in the course that we do together or it could or it's a a little introduction to

01:44:02

the ways that I teach or the ways that we share space together. Um but yeah, I'm really excited to do it again >> and see what what comes through. >> Yeah. And you said the work is tough. Just for all those listening, I personally as as a student of um Inspire, I want to say yes, it's tough, but that's because the work is tough. It's not because Inspire is making it tough. Um it's tough but there's just always such I don't know the word beautiful reflexive interesting group of people

01:44:44

that come together to do the work together and the kind of support uh encouragement resonance I have found so many of the others all of us have found and I can speak for a few of the others because we commonly share these things with each It's absolutely profound. I think there's so much value there that you leave with longer term too, right? Because yes, you're doing the course for a limited period of time. Even though say my breathing beyond the empire is shorter, my limited period lasts 2 years

01:45:18

and that's a long period, but still those connections I know will go with me for quite a big chunk of life. Um, so yeah, I feel like there's so much value in that also. And when things are tough, there's really nothing better than having collective bodies around you doing the tough thing with you. Yeah, that's a really valuable point that we those of us that are interested in um decolonial healing are dispersed for a reason. Um and we're dispersed because everywhere needs it in different

01:45:55

ways, right? And so it's really important for us to find each other um and to create systems and and networks of support and care um because this work can be really really isolating and for um and even more it's as a as a process of moving through this you actually become more and more isolated because you're moving further and and further away from the norm. Um, and as a process to do that by yourself is it can really induce a certain level of loneliness. And so it's really important

01:46:35

for there to be commitment into this work to to connect with people to find other people who are doing this because it's really hard to find resonance in the communities that you are living in especially when you're doing something that that breaks the norms. Um, and so yeah, thank you for bringing that in. We're dispersed for a reason, but it's really important to to connect to those networks and know that you're not alone. Um, and there are so many beautiful people that are doing this work and this

01:47:05

work is invisible. It is it's invisible work. Um, it's not something that we can kind of go at the end and have this little badge, you know, no one really knows it. Um, and so to do this with other people is a is a testament to um, not only kind of to validate your experience, but affirm it. Um, and it's really easy for us to forget how important this work is. It's really easy for us to forget um, how powerful we are. And so when we come into collectives like the ones that come into

01:47:43

the breathing beyond empire course or into the inspired breath work facilitator training, it helps us remember and that's a really powerful thing especially when we are forced to forget again and again. Yeah, just a really sweet thought that came to my mind with that also was something I read earlier which said that Like when a bird starts to learn how to fly or a turtle learns how to walk or animals, you know, set out on their migratory paths and come back season after season. They're not going to any

01:48:21

certificate courses to learn any of this. No one is patting them on the back when they get to it. Yet they're doing it because that's the journey of life and because everything has its own purpose for existing and it it it follows ancestral paths and it goes on cycllically. It just repeats itself and goes on and that's kind of all this work is. It's invisible because there doesn't need to be a pat on the back for it. It just shows up in your nervous system. It shows up in the palents of light and

01:48:52

dark in the world as energies. And that's just so beautiful to me and I hope to so many people listening. Yeah. Anyone who resonates with that uh train of thought I suppose. >> So tell us then what exactly does it look like structure- wise? The format, the length, the shape of it. Um what does someone who signs up for the course say yes to when they sign up? >> Yeah. Um so in this kind of new iteration it's a um it's a 21day program um and we actually meet for four live sessions

01:49:37

um and we move through um three different topics as we move through. So the safety piece is really important. Something that we encounter is the inspire breath work training. Um so in this iteration we we'll be looking at safety. Um and the second uh topic that we'll be moving through is kind of understanding how um we can build resilience against this manufactured fear that we were talking about. Um so cultivating trust within our own uh bodies, cultivating trust within our own um nervous systems and

01:50:20

learning how to stay and have our own back. Um and the final topic around this is actually understanding our relationship a little bit more to um the colonizers child um AI and how we can maintain our humanity um within that and what our relationship is to um to that and honoring that exploration of of value and um and perfection I think is also a key part of this. Um so it's 21 it's 21 days um starting with a breath work and closing with a breath work. So we meet four times. Um every day you'll have a guided audio um

01:51:10

exploration and meditation that gets delivered to you on a daily basis. Um we have multiple different support systems in terms of um feedback and and sharing. Um we have the feelings room. So that's a big part of the inspire constellation as well, the the feelings room. So we cultivate that space as well. Um we also have um the fireside and the hearth which are different uh caucus groups for for breath work and and convening together. So, a space for folks of the global majority and then a space for

01:51:46

white-bodied folks. Um, as part of this course, um, in terms of the meditations and and the reflections that they're kind of actionable in terms of what can shift on a daily basis. So, it's really helpful as well to take the time to see how these kind of offerings and contributions actually shift um the ways that you behave in in a day-to-day. Um, and that's been something that has been really helpful. Um and breath work and attendance to nervous system especially under the cycles of capitalism is really

01:52:29

hard discipline to maintain because being in your body is quite uncomfortable. Um and so having these kind of daily attendance is a is a really helpful support. Um and then the other kind of more structural piece is that these are recorded sessions and that you can revisit them. Um I'm not entirely sure how long we're going to uh keep them available, but something that you will then have um uh for a little while longer afterwards. So even though there's a prescriptive timeline just because we all need a little bit of

01:53:05

structure for that to be delivered, you can actually move through this in your own time. um which I think is um can be helpful because some things can take its own time and we all have different nervous systems that move at different paces and so kind of acknowledging that as well. >> Yeah, thank you for like taking me through that. Um it does sound extremely well supported and like um padded well you know like with a lot of protection and safety which I love about anything that you do honestly.

01:53:45

Yeah. So for also anyone uh listening who might be feeling something right now or drawn to explore this more um where do they go? How do they find out more or take the next step? All of the information for all of the courses will be on our website. Um, yep. Sorry, maybe I'll do that big. No, that's fine. Uh, it'll be in our show notes as well. We will be adding links to the website as well as the course in the show notes. Uh, so you know, just go down in the caption. I think that's what it's

01:54:29

called. Yeah, the caption. And you'll find everything there. Um, so Hana, there's one more corner of you I want to visit before we finish. Um, because I think people who are drawn to this work are always looking for the next thing that's going to crack something open for them. And there's so much value in that. So I want to know what's cracking things open for you right now. What are you reading these days? M so um one of the things that has been really um interesting for me is and I

01:55:12

actually read this this time last year but I've been revisiting it again and again um but it's the work of Avi Saka Tapulo who is a um a psychoanalyst that's based in New York Um but they've written a book um quite fairly recently like within the last couple of years uh called sexuality beyond consent and it's the concept of introducing the concept of traumatophilia um and we've kind of mentioned uh this work and this word in our course in our training um because I love the the idea

01:56:00

of moving towards trauma in a loving way, in a curious way. Um, and one of the things that's really strong in her work is this idea that a lot of western therapists are actually trained to fear trauma um in the sense that it is this big thing that you have to hold so um carefully and we have to stay regulated. A lot of people who come into a clinician's chair or talk about it and get into any form of activation, any emotion are taught to calm down, right, and express themselves calmly. Um, a lot

01:56:42

of the breath work that is taught is ways and tools to regulate, right? um and to um be able to find ways through the emotion rather than um or around the emotion rather than through the emotion. Um, and the concept of having a traumatilic approach has been really interesting for me. Um, because it welcomes trauma to the table in a way that is curious and loving and not something to be afraid of. Um, and so the opposite of it of that would be traumatobic, right? Um, and a lot of our conditioning in

01:57:30

society has been inherently traumatic. if we if anything comes up that's a little bit too much or if we're crying or or shaking or anything, we're just like, "Oh my god, what's wrong? Are you okay?" Or um and just kind of entering this, "Oh my god, what's wrong?" uh piece rather than like, "Oh my god, what's this?" You know? Um, and there's um there's something quite curious in in her work that has been kind of tickling me a little bit. Um

01:58:01

because having a a trauma-informed practice um teaches us to hold our histories with so much reverence um and so much wisdom um that actually can sometimes be um that can maybe uh force us to stay fixed in it. Um, and so I'm kind of curious with with her work and I'm curious what other people have um if they lean into this work, what they think because it's it's been really exciting for me to to no longer be scared of overwhelm for example, right? That's something that we're really afraid of. Um, but she has

01:58:48

this idea that all of the ways that we protect ourselves are ways to protect the ego. And I don't really I don't in our training, we don't really talk in these terms, but I'm using hers because she comes from a kind of psychoanalytic uh frame. Um, but what if everything that we did was protecting our ego? And what if our ego our ego is always going to stop us from doing things that's going to change us? Um, and so actually we kind of need to see if we can stretch into overwhelm slightly because it

01:59:25

allows us to crack our ego a little bit and shift the ways that we um experience ourselves. And I think breath work because it moves in the way that it does, it allows us to kind of the it allows a disengagement of our prefrontal cortex and it kind of opens up all the fixed boxes that we have and shakes us up a little bit. We can actually do this with such a tender in a tender and gentle way if we know how to do that and we are held in that container. Um, but this dissolution of those boundaries and of these fixedness and

02:00:08

these boxes is really curious to me and I think she's really contributing something really interesting. She's got quite a few different podcasts um where she's been a guest on and I really invite anyone who's kind of curious in this to lean into some of her work. It's it's really powerful. Um she also is quite a um an activist in terms of uh voicing the all of the um the connections and interrelated ways that western psychiatry helps to um or reveals its allegiance to supremacy

02:00:48

culture and um also how the genocide in Palestine and in um other places around the world are all connected and um yeah I think it's a really important piece of work for right now. >> Yeah, thank you for that. That's definitely a sure shot to uh the reading list I imagine on the website as well and I love how expansively you've dived into someone whose writing you've appreciated whose work you've appreciated. Yeah, I really appreciate that in you. Yeah. Yeah. And uh moving further into another

02:01:27

one of your senses, what's in your ears, in your ears at the moment, podcast, music, anything, everything you're listening to? >> Okay. So, a podcast that I would like to um yeah, voice appreciation to is The Emerald. I'm not sure if you've heard of The Emerald um by Joshua Shry. And I would maybe even invite you to look at the earlier uh episodes. Um but um Joshua Shry explores the kind of the interreation between mythos myth and mythology into our modern context. And um there's one episode on vegetation

02:02:13

gods that I found really really captivating. Um and really interesting is the role of theater and ritual and performance as trauma repatterning. Um and I studied theater and politics at university uh back back in the day. Um, and I was always drawn to the idea that of the power of theater and what it can do. Um, and theater in the ways that the Greeks kind of did it was always a collective process, a collective ritual that allows us to go through processes of um, collective cathosis. And there's something quite curious

02:03:01

around the now that kind of connecting those dots between theater, ritual, ceremony, breath work, trauma repathning, um was like, oh my goodness, it feels really full circle for me to return to be where I am in terms of breath work and holding these ceremonies and doing these kind of more um attentive and intentional explorations of trauma. and that theater may have always been that and I think that that's something quite um quite interesting. So I'd definitely invite you to for that episode specifically. Um but he has a

02:03:40

lot of other kind of beautiful episodes um in his earlier earlier versions. And then I guess in terms of music, what am I listening to right now? Um, I'm listening to Duas Sal right now. Um, and this, uh, Dale is a, um, a non-binary artist, um, singer and actor. Um, and, um, they're a Sudanese American singer and I think they're they're based in America right now, but quite young. um and has a really beautiful viby rhythm. Um and also of course their new album has a song called Breathe on it which is just

02:04:32

a shorefire way to get me to become a fan. Um so I' I'd encourage folks to listen to Delli. >> Yeah. Amazing. Um I would explore both of those actually. those sounded quite interesting to me. And although a book feels like a big endeavor sometimes when you're already like occupied with so many things, uh music and podcast kind of make that experience a lot more um things that you can do alongside other things, you know. Yeah, there's value there. >> There's actually Yeah, there is a

02:05:09

podcast from RV that um which is how I first encountered her work. um that maybe we can link here as well because then you don't necessarily need to read the book but um yeah it's uh yeah really eye opening so yeah we can share that >> absolutely um and when we speak of the social networking world Instagram or anywhere else um whichever platforms you use is there anyone you're following right now anyone's work whose thinking is genuinely exciting to you, someone you'd want to point people toward

02:05:50

because I think the on the on the social front if it's more p like my personal exploration I've been looking more at kind of um folks in the poly space. I don't know if this is >> yeah that's valuable. I mean, as soon as someone is moving into anything which is not the norm, they are working with concepts that they're decolonizing. So, it's pretty natural to find that link. Yeah, I think that there's um yeah, there's a there's a couple that has an Instagram

02:06:28

handle called Decolonizing Love um which I've been following for a while and they share some really interesting um concepts around desentering romantic love and um exploring other forms of love. um they're very well read and have a really extensive kind of um bibliography and and someone that I really do um appreciate. And then the other person that I would probably uh recommend is Misan Harman who is a Londonbased photographer that has spent a lot of his time capturing um moments of revolution uh in multiple

02:07:15

different countries but also culture um and um is a really beautiful photographer but is very heartled and so those those would be the two that I would recommend for now. Yeah, thanks for that. Um, and just the last of it, is there something that maybe isn't a book or a podcast, but a practice, a place, an experience uh that has been nourishing you recently, something perhaps unexpected to you as well, >> a practice or a place or an experience. So maybe I'll share kind of more personally in the over the last four

02:07:59

years I have really found identity and personality through having long nails. Do you remember this? Yeah. Um I love having long beautifully c created and curated stiletto nails. It was a a vibe for me. Um it was a kind of immediate dopamine hit whenever I saw them. It was like artwork and I have a really beautiful relationship with my nail tech who um yeah doesn't really have a client like like that other than other than me who can kind of interact with that. But in this last um month and month and a half,

02:08:44

I've been in a full-time care position for somebody who's a loved one that has gone through um top surgery and I've been in this care role where I've needed to have full functionality of my nails and my hands and so I've not been able to have long nails. Um, and one of the things that I'm finding quite a lot of joy in is, this sounds really funny, but the the dexterity that your hands have in terms of like being able to do things and being a little bit more independent. Uh,

02:09:26

and it sounds really simple, but things like there were lots of things that I just couldn't do. There were some so many outfits that I couldn't wear because I couldn't do the buttons. Um there are things that you know some various different jewelry that I can't put on because the clasps were too like too small. Um there are things that just ended up doing much slower because I just needed to take care of my nails. And so something that I'm finding so much kind of joy in is really being able

02:09:56

to use my hands. I fully feel >> and I know it's a choice. I know it's a choice but >> um yeah, it's been a really kind of being able to feel things on your fingertips and kind of the textures of things cuz it was just it having long nails completely immobilizes your ability to to touch things with your fingertips. Um, and so yeah, being able to really feel like the textures of different fruits and vegetables and like, yeah, being able to like really like I've not been able to

02:10:32

make a fist with my hand in a really long time, like because I just couldn't do it, you know? Um, so there are lots of like these little things that I'm kind of like, oh, this is this is curious. Oh, I'm so excited for you for this experience. And no, it doesn't seem small to me at all because I remember talking to you about this uh either during a supervision or during one of our general cohort sessions and I'm someone who cannot keep their long nails long like I have to cut them the minute

02:11:02

they start getting long. Um >> and now and I've asked you this before literally like how how do you get so much stuff done? Like how do you cook? How do you do this and that? And you did have a very like sweet response to it that time. And um but I love this experience for you as well. Just like after a long while coming back into a sensation you've not felt in a while. >> Yeah. Amazing. >> Yeah. It's really fun. And I think one of the other things that forces like it

02:11:37

was really interesting the performance of gender and femininity that I expressed through having long nails was also really interesting. Um and so kind of exploring other ways of being feminine is also an interesting kind of shift because I I do really like leaning into that sometimes. And so, um, yeah, it's kind of in inviting other other ways of performing gender, um, that that feel like resonant, um, that isn't just dependent on my long lips. >> Yeah, I hear you. That's amazing. I'm so

02:12:17

happy to hear that for you. >> Yeah. Um, before I let you go, is there anything that's feeling that needs to be voiced, wants to be voiced? Anything that wants to be asked? Any curiosities that I can satisfy? >> I think there's a there's a deeper Yeah, there's a deep appreciation for for you and the work that you're doing here and and the weaving and connecting. I know so many people that have lent into this podcast and has gotten a much broader sense of what we do with Inspire Breath

02:12:53

work. So, there's some personal gratitude um for this project that you're working on um that I want everyone to hear and to know. Um, I also would love to share that this is a is a growing constellation and there's um and I I am so fortunate to have the gift of of meeting incredible people. Um, and I guess I am kind of the luckiest one in it because I am I get to be in the rooms with these incredible people. Um and so doing this work s of con of connecting and and sharing is um yeah it's so

02:13:41

heartening um because I'm like oh you should meet this person um and so I'm I'm really grateful that people get to share uh parts of their journey here with you and with everyone listening. And I guess the the final point of this similarly to you know the migrating animals or the little baby animals that are learning to walk or fly a lot of our our purpose is the direction that we are always moving in whether we know it or not. Um and so you're on this path anyway. Um and so a lot of people that

02:14:19

are listening are on this path anyway. Um and so coming in and connecting with us here is just so you have some companions um to walk alongside you. It's an already it's already hard work. It's already isolating work and I really invite you in um cuz you're so so welcome to come and join us. Um and we're yeah very excited to to see where where else we go with this as a collective. >> Yeah. Um thank you for rubbing off that luck on me as well and like enabling me to sit with so many

02:15:04

people in those rooms and share those rooms with them. There's yeah there's so much I've got a chance to explore as well in terms of just my inner self and skill set as well as meeting all of these wonderful people with these expansive stories connecting with people in different parts of the world um from across your cohorts. like I would have absolutely no business knowing someone doing this work sitting in Missouri or sitting in um anywhere in the UK even which I do get to do now. So thank you

02:15:41

um for this conversation, for also the very particular kind of courage it takes to keep building spaces for people to remember themselves. Um all while we know the world keeps moving in the opposite direction. And I feel grateful and extremely lucky and honored to be one of your students. And I'm really glad that this conversation could happen. >> Me too. >> You know that feeling after a really good conversation where something has shifted but you can't quite name it yet? Where the words are still settling

02:16:20

somewhere in you. I always feel like I want to honor that moment rather than rush past it. And so I like to bring in a poem, not as punctuation, more like maybe a second window opening in the same room. So today's poem is by Jane Hersshfield. Jane is a poet who has spent decades writing about impermanence, attention, and the stubborn, quiet persistence of life. She writes the way um a good breath work session feels like something has been loosened that you didn't even know was held. And this poem is called optimism.

02:17:08

And I want you to receive it not as a sentiment, but perhaps as a declaration, a small, fierce, joyful one. More and more I have come to admire resilience. Not the simple resistance of a pillow whose foam returns over and over to the same shape, but the sineuous tenacity of a tree. Finding the light newly blocked on one side, it turns in another. A blind intelligence. True. But out of such persistence arose turtles, rivers, mitochondria, figs, all this resonous, un retractable earth quoting um not the simple resistance of

02:18:13

a pillow whose form turn whose form turns over and over to the same shape. I keep turning that over because I think that's exactly what this conversation has been about. Not giving up on the world we know is possible, but being willing to turn again and again to find the light by a different route than the one we planned. Breathing beyond empire is, I think, one of those turns, a reorientation, a reaching toward something the old structures were blocking. And if you felt something in this conversation today, if something in

02:18:53

Hannah's words pointed you toward a direction you hadn't considered, I want to invite you to follow that. Don't change your desire. Just turn. The Breathing Beyond Empire course begins on September 16th and runs till September 21st. If you've been sitting on the edge of something, if you've known for a while that the standard approaches to healing aren't quite reaching what needs to be reached, this might be the container you've been waiting for. The link to find out more and to register is in the

02:19:29

show notes. Go have a look. And if something in you says yes, trust that something. Subscribe to the Inspire Breath podcast wherever you listen. Share this episode with someone who needs to hear that the urgency they're feeling isn't their fault and that there is another way to be in the world. And if Tana's work spoke to something in you today, follow Inspire Breath work on Instagram where this conversation will continue. The books, the people, the practices she mentioned today will all be in the show

02:20:04

notes and on our feed. Go and find the ones that call out to you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening all the way to the end. Those of you who did, until next time, don't change your desire for light. Just turn. Take good care.