Episode 2: Reclaiming the Root: The Moment Wellness Failed Me

Written By Lona Vena

How do we find true liberation from pain when the soil we are planted in is toxic? In this second leg of The Inspire Breathwork Podcast, we step off the pavement and into the quiet, blue hour of the garden. Joining Suks is Leyla Firatli, a practitioner who has walked the long, often lonely road of chronic pain recovery through the heavy fog of a Western medical system that wasn't designed to hold her.

Together, they look beneath the manicured hedges of colonial wellness to name the ghost architecture that keeps us root-bound. This is a conversation about the relief that comes when we realize the monster isn't living in us, but was actually a structure built around us.For those seeking chronic pain recovery, this conversation is a reclamation. We explore:

  • The sensory truth of how pain comes into being.

  • How to move toward a liberation from pain by shifting from personal blame to systemic healing.

  • The power of decolonial healing and mind-body medicine as a tool for returning to our original nature.

Whether you are here as a student of breathwork or a professional interested in Breathwork Facilitator Training by Inspire Breathwork, come sit with us in the mind-body healing space where we remember that you don’t have to "fix" your leaves to be worthy of the soil. Connect with Leyla:

Audio Transcript:


00:00:00

Hello there. A truly warm and deep hello to each one of you. I am so glad you've found your way back to this space, this quiet corner of the world we're building together. Whether you are joining us from the middle of a busy city or the silence of a rural morning, whether your heart feels light today or heavy with the things you've been carrying, I want you to know that you are fully welcomed here exactly as you are. No need to perform. No need to be ready. Just land just for a second. Notice the

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temperature of the air on your skin. Maybe it's the cool draft from a window or the steady warm weight of the room you're in. Can you feel that subtle shift in the atmosphere? that quiet in between moment where the world hasn't quite started demanding things from you yet. There's a stillness that only exists right now. A mix of whatever you're holding in your hands and the quiet hum of the space around you. It's a moment that belongs only to you. It's quiet. It's unhurried.

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Last time we spoke, we stepped off that high-speed train. We felt the jarring stillness of our heels hitting the pavement. But today, I want to invite you to go a step further. I want to invite you to take your shoes off. Feel the shock of the cold dew between your toes. We aren't here to prune or to weed or to work the land today. We are just here to inhabit the garden. We spend so much of our lives treating ourselves like a difficult renovation project. We see a leaf turning yellow, a flare of pain, a restless night, that

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sudden sharp spike of anxiety, and we immediately reach for the shears. We try to polish the leaves. We buy the better light, the expensive organic feed, the apps that promise to help us bloom faster, brighter, better. But the garden knows a secret that we have forgotten. Beauty isn't a performance. A plant doesn't grow because it's being watched or managed. It grows because the soil is honest. Today we're looking past the vibrant petals and the manicured hedges. We're looking at the ghost architecture

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beneath us, the hidden pipes and the old foundations that sometimes choke our growth. We're asking what happens when the very things we were told would help us grow are actually the things keeping us rootbound. I'm joined today by Leila, someone who I very recently had the joy of learning about over email as we exchange gentle and excited words about this upcoming conversation. Leila, I was waiting for this moment to say this to you face to face. Um, you are hope. Every word that you wrote to

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me in that email oozed of hope in my mind and thank you so much for being here today and doing this with me. Leila and I are sitting here in the soft light of this morning, this afternoon. Two students finding our way through the same garden through weeds and slippery moss with kindness and strength. Tila, as we even speak across this digital divide, I'm finding myself grounded by the smoke of this incense stick right next to my screen. And it's drifting upward in these slow, lazy curls,

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catching the light in a way that feels so quiet for my mind. And it's very interesting to me all these tiny grounding senses that come to us in times that we don't even realize. So I'm curious as we settle into this virtual room together, what's the one thing in your physical space that's holding you that's grounding you here? >> Thank you. Thank you for that really sweet introduction. One thing that's grounding me is the tea I made before this podcast, which is nettle and

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hibiscus from the lands that I live in. So having that with me as both grounding and also to help my speaking and to help my voice is really beautiful. >> Nettle and hibiscus, you said. >> Yeah. >> And what is this land that they come from? I'm so curious. I live in a small village in the southern coast of Turkey called Aka and it is really abundant in land. There's a lot of food growing here, a lot of plants, a lot of medicine and it is a really special valley that I'm

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really really happy to be living in and I'm really grateful to be living in. And for the first time in my life, I feel like I'm living in a place where my ancestors are connected to where my body is really from and I feel really healthy and I really feel like I belong here. >> Wow, that's beautiful. All of that sounded so grounding to me honestly and it felt warm to hear it. Steven, I was um just before we got on this call, I was thinking I was I was moving through my morning. Um it's 11:55

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a.m. where I am right now. And as I moved through my morning, I was thinking about your arrival here. When your f when your feet first touched the floor this morning before say the world started demanding things from you as it does what was that first thing that you noticed about the weather the tide inside your body >> the first thing I always notice when I wake up is the breathing of my dogs cuz they take these really deep breaths inside. So that's the first thing that takes me out of my body. And before even

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I get to feel myself, I feel them starting to awaken. And then when I start to gently like open my eyes, before I even move, their tails start wagging start like rocking the ground. And that's how I usually wake up. And then I take some time to ground into myself. But those are the protectors and the spirits that usually hold me while I start my day. >> I love that. I resonate with it so much as well. It's just the sweetest thing to me how we co-regulate across species. It's absolutely

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I mean it does leave me aruck about the human experience and the living experience at large. >> Yeah. and witnessing how they regulate, right? Because you and I were both students of the breath and just witnessing how they use their breath, how they use sighing, how their breath gets faster and slower as a way to regulate themselves. That reminds me that I also have that within me and it's like such a beautiful example. >> That is beautiful. >> Yeah. So often I think we wake up and

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there are those days where we immediately try to fix the tide of whatever is happening in our mind. And I love that today we're just sitting here together not trying to fix anything. Um I want to tell you before we go deeper into this conversation that I'm not sitting here as your guide or your interviewer. I'm just here as a fellow student who's also still trying to figure out how to breathe when the air feels heavy. >> Yeah. >> On that note, I'm wondering what is the

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one thing you've been allowed to let go of this week? Allowed by yourself? Maybe not a big systemic thing, but a small but heavy stone that you've been carrying in your pocket that you in this week finally decided to drop. I think for me this week and also having this conversation with you is the fear of being seen and it is actually a big thing and heavy stone. Um, I feel like I've silenced myself my whole life and I've been my own biggest critic. And I think now as times are getting more and

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more chaotic, I am giving myself credit that my voice is also needed. And even though it might not be safe for me to be saying the things that I want to say and to be talking about the things I want to be talking about, I think I'm deciding to still do so and deciding to step into that risk. >> I hear you and I'm absorbing some of those words while I reflect. It's this energy of I see fear. I see unsafety and I'm going to move through it anyway. move through it. Not in a perfect way,

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but move through it nonetheless. That's that's extremely courageous. I love that. Love hearing it and love starting on that note. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Okay, let's take one more sip of that tea and one more breath together and let it land in the belly and then I want to take a walk back through the landscape. If you mentioned the one before this tide became visible for you. So we're here talking about the texture of the before of your life. As we settle into this garden, I want to

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look back at the landscape you walked before you found this path of restoring access to the body, the breath, and inner agency. I learned from you recently that you lived with chronic pain for such a long time since you were a child to your adult years to a profound experience that you also had within the last 2 years. If you could reflect and describe that world, not in medical terms, but in textures, what did it feel like in your skin? So, my journey with chronic pain and with thinking that my body was my enemy

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started when I was 12 when I was diagnosed with advanced scoliosis, which is your spine being an S shape. And the what the doctor said was I was going to be in some pain my whole life, but it was just going to get worse and worse and worse until I was going to be addicted to these painkillers and like could not live a free life. And that was really constricting for me as a child. I couldn't do all the activities that I used to love to do. Wind surfing being a huge one. Um so I felt like my body was

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not a safe place to be. that I was not equal to other people who didn't have this condition and I was different. And the way I coped with that from the age of 12 for about a decade was through drinking and smoking and just disassociating as much as I could. So I didn't have to feel my body and I didn't have to look at that. Um and then things started shifting a little bit. just a little bit. When I started college, I moved to Los Angeles in the US and I started practicing a really colonial version of yoga.

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And even though it was so deeply colonized, it still helped me, right? It still helped me find freedom and movement in my body. And for the first time there, I felt like a little bit of help. Um, but then it all started getting in its worst state on October 7th, 2023 when the genocide against Palestinian people started becoming live streamed. And I grew up in Estanul, right? I was really close to Palestine, but what was happening there was hidden, intentionally hidden from me. Um, but when I was in LA living literally in

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the place where the bombs were manufactured, it became really hard to look away. And that brought in all the pain, all the chronic pain, all the back pain back into my body. Just becoming aware of how the world actually works and having to like sit with it and breathe with it. That's so much for a body to hold and I'm so happy that we're in a place in this moment that you're having this conversation. But I hold a lot of empathy with you there on that experience of being at the root of where it's happening

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and feeling more connect with the place that you have at the moment left behind. But it's still where you are rooted and those roots are always going to be there. >> Yeah. >> Did it feel like a fog at any point? A fog that wasn't letting you see things clearly or look at your own feet to see the ground you're walking on. Were there moments of being lost through the journey? I suppose I think before I learned about Palestine and learned about colonialism and actually learned about how the

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systems and the world works and how really evil they are, I always felt like there was something about my life, about the world that was wrong, but I didn't quite know what. I was living in Venice Beach at the time where it's like the capital of whitewashed wellness, right? Everyone's like so embodied and so happy and like connecting to their joy and their divinity, but something just like didn't feel right and that was manifesting in my body as like a lot of anxiety and feeling like I didn't

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belong, but I felt crazy for it. And I think when I had my awakening to these systems and really understood how the world worked, I felt less confused. Yes, it was really hard to sit with all that, but also felt like a relief. It felt like, oh, I wasn't crazy. This is what I this is what my body was intuitively sensing, and now I have a name for it. And even though it's hard, there's no going back anymore. And it's better this way than to be in that confusion. So yeah, definitely felt like

00:16:33

a fog. >> That lands so well for me because this this part of our journey always surprises me every time I look back of how there was a version of me that just existed without knowledge of what was happening around me. And that version was alive, too. But it didn't know how to see so much of this. And then the cliche around how oblivion is bliss comes into being. And I don't know today if I see that as bliss. And I'm so grateful that I don't see oblivion as bliss anymore. Yeah, it can be blissful, but there's a

00:17:24

texture to it that just doesn't sit right. Right. And you know it deep down like your body knows it. >> Yeah. You're feeling it >> cuz your body has lived through it. Yeah. You feel it like in your heart, in your gut. We call it anxiety. We call it like overwhelm, disassociation. But I think it's just that. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's what that feeling you just spoke about where you said you knew something was up, but you didn't know how to point at it because you just

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hadn't learned of these things. I've definitely felt that before and for me as well over these last couple of years while I've moved into these directions of understanding the body and the mind and the world around me is when I also had that landing moment at some point saying, "Hey, this is why I've been feeling this. It makes sense. It all adds up suddenly." Yeah, that moment is definitely worth more than oblivion and rest for sure. And I'm curious, how did it feel uh in

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your body? What kind of emotions came up or what what kind of thoughts came up for you when the wellness world did try to spray paint over that fog instead of walking into it with you? What comes up when you say that is in the wellness world there was always this message that was like oh we love everyone we love each other like love for all beings but I don't think it was ever love in action it was just a love that was spoken about and I was like yeah I love everyone of course but I don't think I actually felt it but the

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first time I really like felt that was the first time I was on the ground for doing a protest for Palestine cuz I looked around me and I was like all of these people are taking risk for people across the world that they might not even share anything with, right? And like in Los Angeles on the ground there's a lot of white people, there's a lot of Jewish people, a lot of immigrants. seeing everyone come together to fight for other human beings. I think that was the first time where like, oh, I actually love everyone

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here and everyone is like together like showing us what love looks like in action. So, I think it kind of helps me with that confusion I was feeling in the whitewash wellness industry of like what does it mean to actually love everyone? And then I could see that embodied during protests for Palestine. >> Did it ever make you angry at was there rage, anger, any of those emotions that came up during that journey? >> Oh, so much. Yeah. So much rage. Of course. Well, I think that love was

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rooted in rage, too, right? We were all very, very angry, but we were angry together, and we were not angry at each other. Um, but it's taken me so long and I'm still working through processing the rage I felt and I'm still feeling to everything that's happening in the world. Like the genocide did not end, right? We're still seeing so many horrible things and every day I'm in rage. >> It hasn't ended and it also started years ago. It did not start on October 7th either.

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And >> yeah. Yeah, totally. >> And you said a really important thing there where you said you were raging, but you were all raging together and not at each other, which is something I've been holding really close to me as well lately. This idea of fighting the systems, not the person perpetrating the system, because we're all we're all facing the same challenges. And at any moment where I am enraged at a person over a system, all I'm trying to do is put pressure on this person and

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saying, "Hey, why aren't you unlearning at the base I am unlearning, which feels like such an unfair expectation to have of a person. It is still tricky ground for me. I would say I I still walk that thin line where I I you know that discussion about how do you separate an art piece from an artist? I've never been grounded on that. I never find at least till now I haven't found a final answer to that for myself. You know, I feel like I move between contexts. And sure, there could be situations

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where art and artist can't be separated for me. And then there are situations where they can. And that's kind of how I feel about this as well. Like yes, I don't want to blame a person. I do want to blame the system. Sometimes that empathy leaves the door and I am enraged at a person for not working hard enough to unlearn that system. Yeah, that's something I'm working with at the moment. >> Yeah, definitely. And how do you how do you work with that? How do you separate?

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>> I think non-violent communication has been a huge player for me in that space. It plays a very important role in my process of contextualizing information, trying to feel it according to the needs I have from that person or from my environment at large in that moment. And nonviolent communication moves through the principles of empathy very beautifully. Empathy and compassion for yourself, for the world around you. It was also actually a module that was initiated, inculcated from the time of Nazi Germany

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by a person who wanted to find empathic ways to move through those feelings. And so I feel like it lands really well in the space of social justice while holding empathy and space for empathy. So I think I turn to some of those um learnings I guess and I try to sit with those thoughts to follow through with empathic descent instead of just descent. >> Wow. Yeah. That's really powerful. It's so violent sometimes in my mind just the way we're taught to sand down our own edges just to fit into a room that

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absolutely wasn't built for us. And I want to hold that for a second. Just the weight of not being seen in your own pain. Thank you so much for naming so much of that. And I feel like the air is clearing just by acknowledging it. So I see the power in that. I want to move into the shadows of some of these giants that we regularly speak about in our line of work. There's a luminous moment when we realize that the personal failures we've been carrying are actually just a shadow and that

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narrative of Western medicine shatters, isn't there? Could you talk to me a little bit about that the context western medicine misses when they exclude mindbody medicine from their scope of treatment of the path forward? Yeah. As you know, western medicine is really good at treating symptoms, right? But it fails to look at the body, not even at the body, at us as mind, body, spirit that's functioning together for the benefit of the whole. And we need to understand that western medicine is born out of colonialism and

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capitalism. So it serves colonialism and capitalism. Just like these systems treat us as individual, western medicine treats part of our bodies as individuals. So it lacks that thread of connectivity of the body. And I think it's also important to acknowledge that it's intentional. It's not like, oh, they just forgot about it. They're not looking at it. It's they are intentionally stopping mind body medicine from becoming something that's popular and that's respective and that's accessible

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especially to people of color and people that they have colonized. Right? This field of mind body medicine is only accessible to rich white people and only rich white people have the right to practice it if their goal is to make money from it. And we also need to understand that mind body medicine gives us our power back. Basically all that it says is we have everything we need to heal any condition and that power rests in us and that power is not tangible. It's not measurable. So science doesn't like it.

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Western medicine doesn't like it. And just imagine a group of people who are addicted to western medicine drugs. They feel so powerless. They have to go to these treatments to survive and they're scared of themselves and their bodies and they're constantly in pain and the only way they can treat their symptoms is through these western medicine drugs they're addicted to. That's those people are really easy to control. they don't have the energy to fight back. But if you think about

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people who are connected to the power they have within themselves to heal themselves and they have energy and they have drives and they can rely on each other too then that's really scary for colonialism because the second group of people it's really really hard to control and I think that's why western medicine intentionally shuts mind body medicine down to strip us away from that power and potential we all have and to make us forget. >> It's It's like they make you feel that

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the monster is living in you, but it's actually just a structure built around you. >> Yeah, definitely. I also think here it's really important to acknowledge that mindbody medicine is not something new that's being discovered. It's something like we've known for thousands of years and all of our ancestors has been practicing ways of bringing the mind, body, spirit together to heal. Um the erasure of this indigenous knowledge is also intentional. >> Yeah. I remember watching a documentary

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recently on the Maui tribe uh who are settled in New Zealand. And I I was in tears for most of that screening because those places looked like mine personally, which was unsettling and troubling for me to then see that experience of their life and their ancestry because it felt like it was done to me. Those were again moments I was realizing, oh, this is this is everything that's inside me. Oh, this is what's been hurting now. This makes sense. And it was absolutely violent. It was violent how they were their language was

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removed from their own land. how them working with um h how the idea of working with a whale and you know how Chinese medicine uses a lot of equitic creatures and uses the bones of whales to make medicine and stuff that's where it began it began through them but theirs was a spiritual journey where the whale chose to come and die in the sand to help a tree in the forest which is so different from going out into the water and hunting a whale down to now turn it into a commodity. It was heartbreaking and I think some of

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what you said brought this back for me. Yeah, it is heartbreaking. And it's heartbreaking how they've erased all of these things and now they're rediscovering in quotes all of these practices and selling them back to us, the people that they've intentionally taken them away from. Um, and it's especially confusing for me sometimes, like how you were speaking about removing the art from the artist because the way that I healed my own pain and how I can sit and speak to you with my full self now because I'm no

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longer in pain is through mindbody medicine that was colonized. So all of these practices that are deeply colonial and deeply rooted in science and stolen from indigenous cultures actually did heal me. So it is really confusing and I think I am constantly having to separate the art from the artist and also thinking about okay how can I expand upon these things that has healed me to make them more decolonial to make them more accessible. Another thing that's coming up for me while you spoke, you brought up science

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twice and I feel like that's another thing I face a lot of trouble with while I'm having conversations with people and I do it myself as well. I've noticed myself >> rely on science to make someone believe what I'm trying to say. >> But why why do we need to do that? Science by itself is a subject that talks about trial and error. It says everything we are saying is only true for now and it could change any moment. And that's the one thing that our human race at large is a like sitting to agree

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on while we agree on nothing else in this world. That's a little bit crazy to me because >> honestly why does science need to prove anything? Science also has space where they have said where the people who I suppose People who work in those spaces have themselves owned up to facts around how there are things in the world that aren't explained by science. They say it openly. It's everywhere. So >> yeah, definitely. And go ahead. So if the scientific community themselves is

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leaving space for the unknown, why do we then as a people when we are trying to convince someone else of the power of mindbody medicine so many times try to rely on science and go like hey this can also be proved by science. Let me show it to you. But you know how that's like not at all something I need to do. I don't need to turn to science. I need to tell you, look, hey, it's your choice. It already exists in you, and you have to make that shift for yourself because this is a system

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stealing your energy. >> Yeah. I think science makes us believe that something that's not measurable and something that's not physical, >> tangible, >> is not >> Yeah. >> is not tangible. It's not valuable. And I think that's really intentional because I think our power lies in things that are not tangible. I think our true power as humans, it's not actually tangible. So when science is manufactured for us to believe that things that are not tangible actually

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don't matter, that's also a way of control and that's also a way of how colonialism strips us away from our power. And I think now I received this knowledge as mind body science because now they found ways to take these indigenous practices and measure them and quantify them. And that's why people are like, "Oh, okay. Now I can believe in it." Because we've been so conditioned to believe that something that's not tangible is not real. >> Yeah, >> that is so real. I loved what you said

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about our power does lie in the intangible, but we're stopped from accepting that as the truth. I think that's so profound and so beautiful. And I feel like that's what so many people find hard to accept about the human existence that it is magical. There is magic there. There aren't explanations for things sometimes because your body is doing it. It It's It's making the magic and you just have to believe once in a while. >> Yeah, definitely. When I lose touch of that, I always think about how we're all

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born and how magical just just like the act of creation and the act of being born is. >> Oh gosh. And I'm like, if I can't hold on to anything that's not m that's magical and not tangible, I can hold on to that, >> you know, and that in itself is it's just wild. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah, >> it is a magical portal. You're I mean, yes, I've thought about this many times. I have thought about it more in rage to be very honest. Um, of course it's a worldwide

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thing, but I I live in India and it's painful. Every morning is painful in terms of where women stand in the whole gamut of things. And while I know I'm not at the worst edge of it, not even close, it's still painful, of course. Um, and so for me, this thought also brings up so much rage, just the dismissal of the magic of that experience and turning it into this everyday practice which is, you know, not even that important. And oh, why do we need maternity leave? Oh, why do we need period leaves? What? How are we

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still here? You know, like how do we not see the magic in that body? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely magical. And I think that's also intentional, right? Because >> of course, >> we are just so powerful. >> Like women are able to create life that's so powerful. And that's so scary for colonialism. I think whenever there is power in a human that's not tangible, that really threatens colonialism. So I think the breath as well really threatens colonialism. And I think my

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greatest awakening in the past year has been that it's all intentional. That the systems are designed to make us scared of child birth. The systems are designed to put us in a place of chronic pain. They're designed to make us be scared of expressing our age. And it's all super super intentional and it's working exactly as planned, as intended. And I think when I realized that a lot of things started opening up for me. >> Yeah, I hear you. It's like we've, you know, we've been

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holding up our ceiling with our bare hands, thinking we're just weak, when actually the ceiling was designed to collapse. So it doesn't matter how many hands are holding it. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. >> Thank you for taking me. >> That brings up in me. >> Go on. >> Yeah, that brings up in me a conversation I have often with people, especially Turkish people here in the village where there seems to be a lack of hope. You know, there seems to be this belief that humans have been

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violent for so many years and this is the only way we can ever be and capitalism is the only way that we can organize ourselves and no matter what we do, we'll just do the same thing again and we're doomed. And I think I have a huge problem with that. I have a huge problem with that. >> Agreed. Yeah, >> absolutely agreed. >> Yeah, I think when we think that way, we strip the possibility of actually building a new world and it feels like a cop out, right? It's so bad, so I'm not

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going to do anything about it. And I think the like most revolutionary thing we can do is to hold on to hope and is to keep using our imagination to see how we can actually live in a better world. And colonialism is designed to take our imagination away. So it can be really hard, it can be really, really hard. But when you practice it and when you actually take some time to think about humans and how we actually love each other so much and the average human just wants to eat good food and be with

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their family and dance and breathe and be in nature, so there must be a better way. And it becomes easier, I think, once you practice it. I'm so glad that 40 minutes into this conversation and still the biggest word that's coming up for me while I interact with you is hope. I love that. I love that that's um a thread through this conversation in who you are as a person. It's beautiful. Thank you for bringing hope. >> That's really sweet. Thank you. >> Yeah, absolutely.

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Um, another thing you said where capitalism takes away our imagination. I was listening to this woman speaker recently who was talking about this very concept and saying how what the systems that exist today in the world for children are not actually education systems. their indoctrination systems because education is meant to just open curiosity, not meant to close that curiosity with either or answers. There isn't an eitheror. There's always going to be a thousand possibilities for every

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situation at hand. And the fact that these systems have made us believe that that magic doesn't exist is what indoctrination does, not what education does. >> Yeah, totally. I love >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I love that you brought us back to that point. >> Yeah. I think I was really scared of having children when I lived in LA because >> I was like, "Oh, they have to go through this education system and why would I bring a child in the world just to see the child be calm?" But I think moving

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to a small place made me more hopeful in small community living because there are about six or seven children here who are growing up and they're growing up actually in the hands of the community like we are all a part of their education and of their curiosity and they have so many people taking care of them. Um, there's currently discussions on what's going to happen when they're in school age because they're all really young and how we're going to manage this. And that's just really hopeful, I

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think, to have a child actually grow in community, actually grow in nature, and actually have the space to ask questions to a lot of different people coming from a lot of different backgrounds. Um, and I think that's also made me really passionate about this like communal smaller living styles. Oh my gosh, yes. I'm tearing up a little bit. I don't know why. I think just the idea of a child having that much space and that much expansiveness is just really joyful. And I think I've had a very similar

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experience to you uh in this space. I think I spent most of my 20ies knowing that I don't ever want to have a child because it didn't make sense. It didn't make sense to just have this baby and then have it go through what I went through because when I look back at my schooling, even though I went to a private school in a metropolitan city in yes, a developing nation, but still a nation that's on the world stage, um I personally don't remember a lot of it because my brain has blocked all of

00:43:50

it naturally because it wasn't happy. >> Yeah. >> And whatever I do remember of it are also moments where I was penalized or called out or you know treated violently for asking questions or being entrepreneurial or anything anything that exuberated love of any kind was completely shut down. And I absolutely through my 20ies did not want to bring a child into that. And um the last five five to seven years I've been living in smaller towns within India as well. And so much of that has

00:44:33

changed in my mind as well. just the idea at least that hey if this day comes for me I am now building a life that allows for that community to exist where we could build this expansive space for this child. So hearing you say that just made me feel very very touched that it already exists and I'm speaking to somebody who is part of this structure. How is that for you? Like how do you do you feel? Of course, you feel differently towards kids um than how you expressed earlier, but what kind of softness does it bring

00:45:12

in your body? I guess I'm just curious about that experience. First, I think what you just explained, I just want to say what it brought up in me before we move on. I think it reflects your own journey of hope, right? going from a place of being really hopeless about the world and being like I would never bring another human here to actually having that imagination and dream come back and reconnection that hope. Do you resonate with that? >> Yeah, for sure. >> I am hopeful. >> Yeah. And I think

00:45:54

I think in terms of children the thing Palestine brought up in me that is every child is our child right no matter who you are where you are it is a joint responsibility it's not the mother or the father or anyone's responsibility all children are our children I think I really felt that like rage and like it's like inner motherly rage towards what was happening to Palestinian children. That was the first time I connected to that. And I think living here in a smaller place, I can actually like see that in action.

00:46:36

Having these like deep like auntie relationships with other people's children that like showed me that that theory or thoughts or feeling I had about how every child is our child is actually real. Because I really do feel this way watching these kids grow up. >> I just want to do a small shout out to a kid I've been hanging out with recently who's this 2 and 1/2 yearear-old who is just the most fabulous mind I have ever met. She speaks four to five languages at this point. She does complete

00:47:11

sentences. Yeah. I mean we live in a uh in a global township in Ponditarian Orville. I don't know if you've heard of it. >> Oh, cool. I've heard about it. Yeah. >> And because she's growing up here in this exposure of the world around her, which is uh people from all parts of the world, a lot of European people, but also people from all parts of the world. Um, and she speaks the local tongue as well. And it's just really really Yeah, like you said, it's been really sweet

00:47:47

for me also to be in that proximity and realize that this is not something I gave birth to, but it is going through me still. And it's beautiful that she gets to go through so many entities and become this magical version of all of them instead of just her mom and dad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And big ups to them. And I think that >> go ahead. >> I just wanted to complete with saying big ups to also the actual birthgivers um to hold that space because if it's if it doesn't come

00:48:24

through them it's hard for the community around to assimilate as well. And I feel like that sort of >> Yeah. There needs to be trust >> and that sort of love where you can be free with your love instead of having this moment of oh but I gave birth to this it's mine. >> Yeah. It becomes more yours when you share it. And that's a beautiful thought to have around love. Yeah. And I think being with children helps me have that empathy you were speaking about and like removing the system from the person

00:49:00

perpetuating it because even the most evil person perpetuating the system was a child. And every child is so pure, right? They're so curious. Like the way they their eyes look, it's just really pure and really loving. Just seeing everyone as once a child and seeing everything they had to do to survive as a way the systems have interacted with them you know helps remove the blame from the person and put it into the system. I think I feel driven to move into uh talking about some of the mirage that

00:49:43

these concepts have built. Western medicine I know loves a before and after photo. It loves that clean lines, high vibration, healed glow. Uh but chronic pain is messy. It's more a forest than a paved road and it's absolutely nonlinear. It's unproductive, quote unquote unproductive. Um, why do you think I I feel like you have addressed some of this, but I want to go deeper into it. Why do you think these healing spaces are so terrified of the messy middle? And I know it's your understanding that

00:50:28

they are in some way threatened by mindbody medicine which we did cover a little bit of just now. But if I wanted to hear more on these spaces of what what is so specific about the messy middle that scares them. >> I think these colonial mind body healing spaces are trying to sell you something. I think they come from a place of authority and they're like here I have this formula and if you buy my formula then you can apply it and then you will now be this healed version of yourself thanks to me

00:51:10

and what I know but actually the journey of chronic pain everyone's pain is different right what works for me might not work for And what works for me for my back pain might not work for my stomach pain. And you are your body is the best healer for you. And the only thing someone can do for you, a practitioner, can share their own story so you feel inspired and can hold the space for you and equip you with some tools and give suggestions for you to do your own healing. And what happens when I work with people, this

00:51:55

has happened many times, is when I open the space up for them, maybe we do three sessions and I give them all the tools I know and then they figure out how to do it themselves and they don't need me anymore for a fourth or a fifth or a 20th session. And I don't make money. I clients come and then I give them the tools and they go. It's not profitable. It's genuinely not profitable if you approach it this way. And I think that's why they're scared of that messy place where

00:52:32

the person is doing their own work and they connect to their own power and now they're empowered and they don't need anyone else anymore. They don't need to pay anyone anymore. And that goes against the grain. That goes against the system. So we want to shy away from that and be like this is the formula that will heal you. Look how bad this person was and how great this person is now. And the only way you can be like that is if you pay me. And I think that's really evil. And I think that's just

00:53:03

perpetuating western medicine rebranded as my body medicine. >> Right. That's interesting. Right. It's perpetuated as mind body. It's not saying I am western. That's so interesting. Uh two things that are coming up for me and before they leave my mind, would you uh be open to taking us through what your work is a little bit at this moment. Like you said, there are sessions you hold and I I I want to know I know the people listening want to know um what the work looks like.

00:53:38

>> Yeah. So I work with people who are experiencing chronic pain. And what I do is there are certain things that our nervous system might do to put us in chronic pain. And I have my own understanding of how this works through my own body and through those people that I've worked with. And it's always changing and shifting. And there's no right so it's not like the scientific formula but I try to explain from my understanding what is happening and then we work with the person to go

00:54:20

through their story and listen to their pain to figure out what their body is trying to communicate through the pain. And of course, while we're moving through all of this, we take the person as a whole, their social location, their ancestors, what they've gone through, what systems they have to witness, and what systems they have to live through. And then after that, we move into this place where we allow the pain to move away. And we do that by convincing the nervous system that pain is no longer

00:54:59

needed as a form of protection. These are kind of the three steps I work with with people. And I think to really understand these, we also need to understand like how I view pain. And I want to take you through that for a few minutes. What I have built upon online body medicine. The way I see pain is there are two ways chronic pain can show up. And in both of these ways, pain is protecting you from something. So the first one is the pain might be protecting you from something that is actually physical. So what was happening

00:55:40

to me at a certain part of my pain journey was I was protesting a lot and I was face to face with LAPD a lot and it was actually not physically safe for my body to be there. So my body started creating really intense back pain. So I couldn't walk anymore and I couldn't go and then I was safe. So that's like a really physical example of the pain keeping us safe. And then I believe there's an emotional layer. There are certain emotions that colonialism makes it actually dangerous for certain bodies

00:56:18

to express and feel, right? These are rage, anger, guilt, shame. There's many more. And just think about what happens when a person of color expresses rage in America. You know, it's actually dangerous for them. So, and certain emotions are dangerous for other people. So, the nervous system basically shuts these emotions down and represses them. And then at some point, the systems are always putting us into a place where we have to feel these emotions, but they're also making it dangerous for us to feel

00:56:54

these emotions at the same time. So, the nervous system becomes overwhelmed. And just as we're about to start feeling the emotions because the nervous system cannot repress them anymore, then pain begins because when pain begins, we can't look at anything else. Pain contracts to your chronic pain in such a big way that everything you can think about is how to make the pain go away. Especially mind body sourced pain. It's really intense. There's no difference between mind body pain and falling and

00:57:25

breaking your arm. It's really, really intense. So then the pain is protecting you from these emotions that your nervous system thinks are really dangerous to feel. And these are the two ways chronic pain happens from my my experience. And the way we work with this is first we understand the systems that are creating the pain. We remove the shame and the guilt from us and put them into the systems knowing that we're all collateral damage to capitalism and the systems were designed to put us in pain.

00:58:01

So we actually like are here trying to survive with no fault of our own. And then we train safety in our nervous system and here we use what we learned from Hannah like the breath and certain safety creating techniques to feel safe around our rage to feel sha safe around our shame and our guilt. And then once we work with this, the pain almost all of the time will start to ease off. And then sometimes it can show up somewhere else. And then you do the work again for a different emotion, for a different situation. And it's honestly

00:58:36

this lifelong journey of reprogramming and changing how you view pain from this western medicine lens as this act of love your body is doing to keep you safe. is actually really really intelligent way of your body keeping you safe. Yeah. >> Yeah. Thank you so much for taking me through that. I could feel um especially when you took me through how you how your mind processes chronic pain. It really helped me visualize it beautifully. I remember a recent experience for myself as well where I was um learning

00:59:25

from a teacher about our existence as matter and the universe. And we were moving through some of these concepts. And a practice that we indulged in also was talking to your pain, giving it a physical form, a texture, a color, a smell, and befriending it before you can ask anything of it. Which to me was very beautiful because how can something exist in your body and you not know it, you know, and you not address it or feel it beyond just this bad emotion it's holding for you. And it was interestingly

01:00:14

transformational for me as well. Very honestly, I went into it thinking not much of it because when you are in that much pain, it also gets really confusing where to turn. I can't imagine everything you've been through in your entire life because this for me something that's going on in my lower back has been prevalent for a year just a year of my life and it's been so destabilizing. So, I can't imagine how you've done that many years and still shown up with courage to work through it. But I also

01:00:59

get it because I feel like when you do feel that helpless around a system, there actually isn't any other way left except to turn to practices that feel a little like not tangible as we discussed. >> Yeah. But that those are the moments human beings I think do start believing in magic in those moments where nothing no system that you thought would help is helping. Totally. what you said really excited me because it's something I experience with people I walk with on this path is the people who actually

01:01:39

decide to take the leap of faith and believe in this work because this work is a leap of faith. You need to be like this pain is caused by my nervous system and by my emotions and it is not caused by something physical and that's really scary. >> And your rational brain makes it really hard to uh let you believe anything else in that moment. >> Yeah. Continue >> because your brain has been colonized to believe that whatever is intangible is not valuable. Right. Um, but people who

01:02:17

are ready for that are usually people who have hit rock bottom with western medicine. But in my story as well, the moment where I decided that I was going to do this work with a lot of dedication was when the western medicine system fully and completely failed me. And I think yes from that darkness and death and like the scariest moment actually is where the path opens up. And I also wanted to bring up what you said about like speaking to your pain. Usually almost all the time the moment in this

01:03:03

work where I see the biggest pain reduction is when we do this exercise where we write the pain a letter. We write the pain a letter first understanding and acknowledging why it's there like thank you for protecting me from this. I understand why you're here and I'm really grateful because and then we talk to the pain and we explain why we don't need it anymore. And what's interesting is we don't actually need to move away from the situation that's creating the pain. Sometimes we don't

01:03:41

have the privilege to quit the job that's creating the pain or change the home situation that's creating the pain. Sometimes we cannot change our situation, but we don't need to to convince the pain that it's not needed anymore. We can be like, "Look, I have these other strategies now that's going to keep me safe. So, I think it would be best if you weren't here anymore." And then we read this letter out loud looking at the place in the body that has the pain like three times a day. And

01:04:14

this practice has been the most most powerful for me and the people I've worked with because it's first of all it's so loving, right? You're like talking and acknowledging this part of you that you've been so scared of and you've been trying to push away. You're inviting it in and you're treating it with respect and with love. And once you repeat that a few times, you see it actually soften and respond. And I think that's like my favorite part to seeing this work is seeing someone build that

01:04:50

connection. And once you see it soften and respond to your wants, you know that no matter how intense any pain might be in your body, you can do this again. And you have this belief that it'll work again. And that creates so much liberation and power and helps you like break away from this western medicine cycle that keeps you addicted to drugs and treatments and money and all these things. Yeah, that's so real because I also had really sweet conversations and there was like angry fights we had as

01:05:26

well and it was really cute and I felt so much more connected to so many parts of my body through that. It yes I was talking to only that tiny bit but I did of course I felt connected to so many parts of myself through that conversation. Yeah, I think again for me the connect here becomes nonviolent communication because now it's just directed inwards, but you're still trying to have an empathic line of communication with this pain inside your body and seeing it as an entity instead of just

01:06:09

something that you want to shun away. >> Yeah. And I think we use these words like your brain creating the pain or your nervous system. We use them just to give things names, but it's all you. And I think it's important to acknowledge like your nervous system is not this like separate entity from you or your brain is somewhere here. It's all it's all you doing it. And that can be hard because there's some responsibility there like I am creating this pain and that's really triggering for some people

01:06:48

people who actually have been pain for so many years because they're like I didn't do this to myself. I've been miserable. How could I be putting myself in misery? And a lot of guilt and shame comes up with that too. But I think if we're actually going to see ourselves as a whole system working together, we do have to take that responsibility that no, it's not our nervous system, it's not our brain, it's actually it's actually us doing everything here. Yeah, it's a beautiful balance actually

01:07:19

because I know there have been days where I've turned to different parts of my body and thanked them for being their own individual selves. And then there are days where I've also brought them together and said, "Hey, we're all one, so we don't really need to fight each other." And I feel like that balance is really, really sweet. And I genuinely love talking to my body. It's uh it's only grown over the years. I think as a child I used to do it in a more fun way

01:07:46

but as an adult I found more structured practices around it and it feels very liberating. You're right. Liberation is definitely a feeling I draw from it. Yeah. >> Do you feel like it responds? >> I think so. I think there are days it responds and there are days it doesn't and that's all right. I don't feel like responding to it things inside me all the time either and so it's okay >> definitely >> but it's definitely moved towards healing not away from it. Yeah. Uh my my

01:08:25

fluid pain is called Pip. So Pip is in the room with us and they're androgynous. Um, so they're a day and yeah, I just love bringing them into the room sometimes with me. >> That's beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Giving it a name, giving it a personality to try to understand it more. Thanks, Pip. So out of the two things that were coming up for me earlier, one of them was talking about your work uh which we did and then the second one was around this idea that you had spoken about how

01:09:03

uh those people don't need to come back to you after three sessions and so it's not a sustainable or profitable model for western medicine to follow and and because each of the structures I think the systems and structures that are built in a capitalist world are all entirely profit first and profit focused is why I feel this direction gets taken in and I now I started to recall a conversation I had in my cohort I am in the middle of my breath work facilitator training with Hannah uh with inspired breath work And

01:09:48

just last week in our cohort, we had the exact same exchange where um we realized many of us came up and realized that maybe we're not going to be those practitioners who host a one-off session just to let people get a taste of what this practice is. Because without context, without building safety, without a person even learning what safety means, it's really hard to then have them show up for this practice and then be involved in it and be sure in yourself that this is not going to cause

01:10:29

them more trauma by the end of it. So and then we were discussing actually different ways in which we see practicing while also not taking away space from someone who maybe does not have the access, the privilege, the time, the resources to attend more than one session. Do you think there are ways you've been able to work out for uh such a I I guess the space where you know we don't want to be unethical with our practices by hosting one-off sessions and I feel like this is a common feeling amongst a

01:11:09

lot of people in these practices who want to do these practices ethically but it really does leave out a huge chunk of people who want to discover these practices And it also leaves out um the hope for any profitability for then these ethical practitioners. So I'm wondering if there's a workar around you found so far. I think for me here it's important for me to acknowledge my privilege because I've always positioned myself in a way where the healing practice or the practice I'm offering is not my main

01:11:52

source of income. So I've had the privilege to study computer programming and I build websites and apps like ethical tech. I run my own software engineering agency with my partner here remotely and that is how I make my main money and I've intentionally even though I'm not so deeply passionate about it as much as I am with this work I've intentionally not let go of it. So I am able to offer some of my practices for free or for energy exchange that's not monetary or for a really low sliding

01:12:30

scale. And I definitely like understand on hold that that is not possible for everyone and it's because I had the privilege to attend this university that gave me the skills to do that. But that has been my work around to creating space for people who don't have the resources is to make sure I have another place I'm getting some of these resources that are not my clients. So I'm not bringing this mindset of wanting to make money from them to my clients because it is also really real that we

01:13:03

have to make money to survive. We have to definitely have to. So I try to separate them, but I'm also moving into a place where I'm diving deeper and deeper into this work. So I have less and less time for the place where I get my income from. So, I think I'm at a crossroads to figuring out how it's all going to come together because I feel so passionate about giving people the power back, the power that the western medical system has taken away from them. And to be able to really walk this path, I need

01:13:45

to put almost 100% of myself in it as well. So, I'm also figuring out navigating these waters. Okay, that's beautiful. And I hope there is a way through I I'm sure there is. There isn't a doubt that there is a way through that. I hope that more and more of us can access those things and make it happen. While we do continue to offer a lot of this um on proono basis as well because I think we're all aware how much need there is of that before anything else. >> Yeah. And I think the sliding scale

01:14:22

pricing is really big for me. Um I I look at who my client is and I give them options on how they can pay and I off I open ways for them to pay me without paying me with money. So as we were speaking about like imagining new ways of coming together and existing as humans, I think it's important to think about the centering money as well. like how can we have an energy exchange without money? It's also something that I'm constantly thinking about and trying to find ways that feel good for both parties.

01:15:03

>> Yeah. Yeah, cuz I do feel like while we're while we've also talked about u bringing in a new world, if we are trying to say this is not it and we need to midwife a new world into existence, then we have to start building that world in these ways where we start holding um a healing practice at the same value as money. That maybe it can in some way pay for your existence in a different way than money can. But it does pay for your existence. >> Yeah, definitely. And yeah, it's not

01:15:38

possible to do that all the time, right? By finding these little opportunities to decenter money when we can. Like a way I really have been trying to do that here is to grow my own vegetables and have people in the community have different trees and grow different vegetables so we can exchange without there being any monetary exchange. Oh, that's so sweet. What do you What have you enjoyed growing the most? >> Oh, I'm not that good at it. Um, last season, my most successful was cherry

01:16:12

tomatoes. >> M yum. Okay. >> It was really abundant. Spicy peppers. >> Okay. >> My eggplants didn't do so well. And my melons also died. And my cauliflowers also died. It'll be planting season in like a week or two here. So, I think I'm going to go all tomatoes because I think that's my strength. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like calling in on that strength is amazing actually because it does like exactly that you've got us to the point.

01:16:44

Um like the more you cash in on that strength actually, it will build up more confidence for the other vegetables for you to at least give them more chances and that is a currency. Definitely. >> That is a currency even if it's not money. >> Yeah, I love that. >> Yeah, food is a big currency. >> I've been um I've been moving into fermenting recently and it's been really really a joyous process. So now I've been making some bioenzyme cleaners at home and kombuchas and pickles and it's

01:17:21

really interesting. So this time while I was traveling, I am still traveling at the moment um from the east coast of India to the west and then back. And while I was meeting my friends and loved ones on this route, I did take like soaps for them that I made and peanut butters I made. And I was like, of course, this is currency. >> Yeah, it's the best gift you can give. >> Yeah. Who would be silly enough to think otherwise? It is the best and it's made me feel so joyous which is the coolest

01:17:55

of it. Coolest thing of it that someone else is getting the product and it's making you happy somehow. There couldn't be anything better. Yeah. And it's giving you your power back too. You know, you don't need to rely on anyone to have soap. You don't need to rely on anyone to have food. It's all kind of the same thread. Yeah. While you talk about giving power back to yourself, I feel like many times when we are going through chronic pain or are in the process of healing,

01:18:34

there is a lot of our value that we link to that idea of healing. So I'm wondering since you started delinking your value from your healing and stopped treating your healing say like a deadline when when the old pain would flare up again or if it does even now um how do you tend to it differently? What is that conversation between your breath and your pain sound like today? It flares up of course and when it flares up in my right lower back which is where my like two year long chronic pain happens where I couldn't even walk

01:19:20

for about a year. I laugh because I know exactly I know exactly what it is. I take a breath and I take a moment to just look at what's been going on that day, the week before, what's going to happen after, and I just try to understand why the pain is there. I do this journaling practice where I'll write down all that I'm feeling really raw, really unfiltered, as unfiltered, as mean as I can get, like as rageful as I can get. And I'll just throw it out just to let out these emotions. And I'll

01:20:01

ground myself before and after. So I'm in safety while I'm doing this practice. And now from my back after I do this, it goes away. I can confidently say that. And because I know that when it comes it's light, I don't feel like, oh no, like I don't feel scared. But when the pain comes somewhere else, it's a little bit scarier because I have to go through these mental loops of what is it? Is it something structural? Is there something wrong with me? Do I need to get treatment for it? And that takes some

01:20:39

time for me to go through those and come to the conclusion that it's mind body caused pain. And then once I do that, I go through this process of like really convincing myself that it is. And then I can go through the same process I do for my back and it goes away. But when it's somewhere new, I definitely have this feeling of doubt and fear and all my conditioning with western medicine comes in. I call my childhood doctor in Istanbul who still picks up the phone even though I'm almost 30.

01:21:11

>> That's so cute. >> Yeah, she she's amazing. Um, but yeah, there's a lightness to it for sure. And there's also an understanding I think now that I know that the systems are designed to put me in pain. So there's an understanding that it's going to happen. I am going to experience rage after I see a photo while I'm scrolling in the bathroom and I leave and I move along my day and that night I have a piercing pain in my chest like that is going to happen and that's just a part of trying

01:21:51

to survive in these times I think. So I try to hold myself with a lot of love and compassion and my body and nervous system for everything that's doing all the complex systems to keep me safe. >> Witnessing them instead of fixing them first. >> Witnessing them with love. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's actually a really important part of that. Witnessing with love. And it sounds more of a conversation than a battle which is bound to have better results. It also like the shift feels like

01:22:32

how pain in our body is felt through a clenched fist. Sometimes this feels more like an open palm sort of process which is so beautiful to imagine. I love that for you so much. And yeah, I think the more you move through the process >> and the more it happens in different places, the easier it gets each time >> truly the faster the easier, >> right? A positive feedback loop. >> Yeah. And you can build this trust with your body. So >> once it becomes easier each time

01:23:05

>> because it's essentially at this point it's a friend you're listening to. It's not a tool you're using anymore just to fix something. >> Yeah. And it sounds like so light and friendly and loving, but I also want to acknowledge sometimes there are days where I'm in pain and I'm just in pain and I feel horrible and that also happens. And I think I've gotten to the point where that's also okay. Some days my body just wants to be in pain. And I think allowing space for that too.

01:23:36

>> Thank you for being honest about that. >> Yeah. So in a world that demands that we be engines, I feel like doing nothing feels like a crime. Sometimes it does to me many times. Um we were told that our value is tied to being painfree and productive. We're constantly told that even today. So I want to know about your sacred pause. Now when you choose to be idle, to be unproductive in this garden, what does that defiance feel like in your skin? How do we stop treating rest as a luxury for the few

01:24:21

and start claiming it as a right for the many? >> Yeah, definitely. I think one way I really honor that that is very different since I've left Los Angeles and moved here is the way I honor my own cycle. I truly give myself five to seven days to rest at the end of my cycle and that's non-negotiable for me and I actually will not go anywhere and I will not make plans like if I'm working maybe I'm doing something on my laptop that's easy but I will give myself space during that

01:25:04

time and I'm very disciplined about that but sometimes I also need rest that's not during that time. And that's really hard for me because I'm like, this is the time where I'm supposed to be productive. This is the time where I'm supposed to have the high energy and the creativity and the drives to do things. And one pain comes at the more active parts of my cycle. That's harder for me to create the space to just be. And I think it's just showing how colonialism is forcing us to be

01:25:42

productive because the reason why I moved here, the reason why I quit my corporate job in tech, the reason why I divested from the US is to not be productive. But still, I am putting myself to the standard where I have to be creating and I have to be doing things that's going to help me reach more people or I have to be even making art. I'm hard on myself for not painting and that's so silly. It's absolutely so silly. Um yeah, and it feels really constricting and it feels like I'm criticizing

01:26:22

myself. And I feel like everyone else is criticizing me, but actually there's no one criticizing me. It's just me. >> As I'm reflecting back, uh, reflecting, not reflecting back, reflecting on that sacred idleness sounds extremely quiet, but I feel like it's more of a revolution to just inhabit space without an output. I also see that as like a huge resistance towards systems. Just to know that I exist and I don't have to earn my place on this ground. Yeah. existing without output. That's

01:27:03

really hard because I think the way I look at certain parts of my life, certain chapters, is by looking at what I've done, what paintings have I made, what sessions did I do, what work did I do. It's not actually like did I listen to the bird sounds or did I go out for sunset? It's about that output and it feels really hard to not do that. I think the systems show us that we're alive if we're producing output. Or maybe if we didn't produce any output that we even live. I think that's like

01:27:46

what the critic in my head is saying when I just choose to be >> like Yeah. Do you believe that your worth isn't something you grow? It's just it's just simply you. You're standing on the ground and it's you that is your worth. It's so tough to make yourself truly believe that while we still continue to function in these systems, while we still continue to have conversations about how money is irreplaceable even still to hold that duality is still it's it's

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a hard it's a hard job. It's a lot of work. Yeah. And I think I have separated my creativity and output from money. I think I've done a good job with that the past two years, but I haven't separated my value from my output. The second one's harder for me. >> I hear you. I think a big thing that helped me work through some of this was the practice of mindfulness. It's something I only discovered last year in my journey and I happened to find a very beautiful teacher

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um who I was learning with which made the experience all the more productive. Yeah, it's funny that I'm calling it productive again. But yeah, uh it made the experience all the more productive and my brain was able to absorb things better and enjoy the practice more because I enjoyed her voice more and I yeah a great teacher. Um but mindfulness really allowed me to do exactly the things you just spoke about about how you're not seeing your output as watching the sunset or observing the

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birds. Mindfulness essentially just tells you to do that with your time and allows your mind space to wander and not criticize it just because it wondered because actually your brain coming up with thoughts is the job of the brain. So it's not doing anything wrong by doing that. A system telling you that it's not supposed to get distracted or think about anything else while you're staring at a screen, that is actually the lie, not the other way around. >> Yeah. And I think I get that a lot from

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people I work with because there is a portion of meditation and being with the pain too and people are like, "Oh, I can't meditate because there's so many thoughts coming into my brain." But actually meditation is you acknowledging the thoughts coming into your brain. It's not the fact that you don't have any thoughts in your brain. I think that's the biggest misconception of white wellness as well that to meditate we need to be like heated up really straight in this one position looking so

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zen and not thinking about anything else but that's not what meditation is. We can be meditating while we're walking while we're doing the dishes while we're just being. I think it's important to acknowledge that we can be meditating in movement. >> Yeah. Yeah, vipasana actually is a form that um is practiced worldwide for this kind of silence. And even then, even though you're alone with your mind for a whole 10 days, it's not like your mind stops thinking, it's because it's simply not supposed

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to. Yeah, I Yeah, you're right. I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions around meditation that your mind's supposed to be blank. >> Yeah. When you said vipasana, what came up is we did this thought experiment with a friend once in conversation. We were like what if the oppressive world government just made us all do the pasta but it was forced and everyone had to do it for 10 days. And then the government like left after and pulled all his forces. What would happen? And it was really interesting to think

01:32:07

about 10 days of silence. >> Yeah. 10 days of complete silence, complete being with yourself and just your mind actually. And then to allow those thoughts because they're going to come. Um this actually the thing you spoke about as a thought experiment is something that has been practiced in a few prisons uh around the world actually. But I know of a specific case study from India where they did try this in a prison um where each inmate did go through a 10day vapasa and it was actually a very

01:32:47

revolutionary change in rehabilitation. a lot of them while again like of course this is stuff that I have read on the internet and the internet is a sketchy place but from what's out there from the information that's out there a lot of them spoke about how the things that they did the journeys that they had just suddenly stopped having as much hold over their existence and they were able to breathe through their reality much better. Not to at all go into another discussion about the prison

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system at large because it makes me very overwhelmed to even think. Yeah, two is an undead in my mind. But yeah, but it is something that's been tried out and it actually works in crisis situations as well because a lot of times I've had um say a friend who is overwhelmed because she knows she is in a job that is not going to support her overall health, but she doesn't want to lose out on those resources that she knows she needs to get through this job. So many times we'll end up in those positions and if

01:34:07

there is a crisis call I receive from a friend like that of course in that moment I suggest some sort of a mindfulness practice or doing a practice that they see as indulgence for themselves so that they can come back to their reality of relaxation. But I think the biggest thing I do say with that is I feel like at some point you should start doing this a bit more regularly for yourself so your body's prepared for it instead of doing it in crisis mode. Even though sure even in crisis mode it will help you

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but the impact is so much deeper if it is a regular practice for you because it allows your body space to pendulate then instead of forcing it into healing which is kind of what we're trying to not do by bypassing. Yeah. Um I'm wondering I am wondering how I got to this. Yes, the point about how even in a crisis it does really have deep impacts um healing practices, mind body practices at large. Yeah. And I think I see all of these practices as preparation, mindfulness and breath and even healing from chronic pain, as

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preparation to remain centered and grounded and embodied as things get even more and more chaotic and dark because they will under this system. And we're just preparing to hold ourselves in each other when they do. that I think that's really the power of these practices. >> I love coming to a close on that thought that we have to hold each other within each other to get through this. That is what you >> Yeah. >> kind of said. Yes. Yeah. I love that. It's so beautiful just as a image in my

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mind right now as well. It's warm. It's cozy. >> Yeah. And I think it's been I think it's been so healing for me to be in the inspire breath work cohort too with people who I can really deeply speak about these things and who will hold me for who I am and what I've been through and who are going through similar things. I think it's been the single most healing thing for my nervous system is to be in community with these people who inspire me and people I know I can rely on, you know, when things get

01:36:51

hard for care and for support. Yeah. with you a thousand% there because I've also had such a deep connection with the cohort even though we meet online even though we come from we don't know so much about each other honestly about our day-to-day experiences and life but there is such a deep connection to be formed on the politics of it all yeah and the courage it takes to be aware you know I think all of these people are really brave because they've chosen to be aware. Um it gives hope to be around

01:37:27

brave people. >> Absolutely. Well, we've spent such a beautiful morning in this garden today and done some incredibly heavy lifting, too. We've turned over stones that haven't been moved in a really long time. If you're listening and you feel a little bit raw or maybe just a little more here than you were 2 hours ago, just let that land. The digging isn't a chore. The digging is the healing. Leila, I want to thank you with the whole of my heart. Thank you for the way you held space for all these messy,

01:38:09

unprett, unproductive parts of the work today. And I think you've given a map of what it looks like to stop painting the leaves and start honoring the soil. And I'm just really grateful for your presence here. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank you for opening up the space and holding the space so beautifully. It was really nice to meet you and connect in this way. >> Mhm. Is there something coming up for you right now that you would like to share, say, or sit in silence with?

01:38:46

>> Yeah, I'm just really excited to see where you take this project and all the beautiful things that are going to come out of it that's going to touch me and other people as well. So, yeah, a lot of gratitude and excitement. >> That's so sweet. Thank you so much. Before we step back into the world outside of here, I want to offer a poem that feels like a landscape in itself. A sensory map for those of us who have spent our lives breathing against the grain of a world not made for us. It was written by

01:39:24

Audrey Lord, a self-described black lesbian mother, warrior, poet. Audrey was a giant of the 20th century American civil rights and feminist movements. She understood perhaps better than any of us that our silence will not protect us and that our breathing is an act of survival. This poem, a litany for survival, is for those who live at the shoreline. For those of us who've been taught to fear our own voices and our own needs. A litany for survival. For those of us who live at the shoreline, standing upon the constant

01:40:12

edges of decision, crucial and alone. For those of us who cannot indulge the passing dreams of choice. Who love in doorways coming and going in the hours between dawns. Looking inward and outward at once before and after. Seeking a now that can breed futures like bread in our children's mouths so their dreams will not reflect the death the death of ours. For those of us who were imprinted with fear like a faint line in the center of our foreheads, learning to be afraid with our mother's

01:40:54

milk. For by this weapon, this illusion of some safety to be found, the heavy-footed hoped to silence us. For all of us, this instant and this triumph, we were never meant to survive. And when the sun rises, we are afraid it might not remain. When the sun sets, we are afraid it might not rise in the morning. When our stomachs are full, we are afraid of indigestion. When our stomachs are empty, we are afraid we never may eat again. When we are loved, we are afraid love will vanish. When we are alone, we are

01:41:35

afraid love will never return. And when we speak, we are afraid. Our words will not be heard nor welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak remembering we were never meant to survive. Sitting with your story and Audrey's words I am struck by that faint line of fear uh she spoke about in the center of our foreheads. For so many of us, I think chronic pain and chronic anxiety are just that lion made very physical. And we've been taught that if we just heal correctly or stay silent enough or

01:42:30

work hard enough, we'll finally find safety somehow. But I think Audrey reminds us that safety we were promised was always an illusion and that we weren't meant to survive these systems. And yet here we are breathing and speaking and reclaiming everything that is our root. Do you have words coming up for you with the poem? Yeah, I think I needed to hear that poem. It was so beautiful and such a beautiful reminder to keep using our voices because we're in danger no matter what. So, might as well be authentic and do

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what we can and express ourselves. I think I'll be walking away from this today with that reminder really deep in my bones. Yeah, I think it's in the everyday decision to for me to like hold my own hand and say I am here and I am whole. Leila, I want to thank you again for this time, your radical honesty, for all that vulnerability and for just being generous with your words and your thoughts and your heart. and meeting you here has really been a gift for me. >> Me too. Thank you so much. Thank you for

01:44:06

holding the space for all of that. >> And to you, dear listener, thank you for having the courage to look at the ghost architecture with us today. It isn't easy to name the things that hurt us, but it is the only way to move through them. As you carry this episode into your week, remember your breath doesn't belong to the industry. It doesn't belong to the clock. It belongs to the earth beneath you and the ancestors behind you. In the next episode, we move from the roots to the ancestral breath. We'll be

01:44:56

looking at the stories in our blood, the ones that give us life and the ones we are finally ready to exhale. You can find the breath of liberation wherever you get your podcasts. If this conversation helped you name a giant today, stay with us, subscribe, share this pilgrimage, and keep breathing into the edges. See you so very soon for the next step of this sacred journey.

Lona Vena
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